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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#123901: Dec 16th 2020 at 6:13:25 PM

I don't know if I posted this before, but here's some scans of Scott Lang beating the shit out of Doom while giving him a "The Reason You Suck" Speech. I don't know the full context of the scene, but I think it gets across some of the points brought up in this discussion.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#123902: Dec 16th 2020 at 6:16:05 PM

[up][up]"Where do you think all the gold came from?"

I liked the bit where she shatters the mural depicting Asgard as peaceful to reveal another mural depicting its bloody history of conquest.

Disgusted, but not surprised
EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#123903: Dec 16th 2020 at 6:17:58 PM

The three elements that make up a good villain, in my opinion, are:

1. A Sympathetic backstory. Generic Doomsday Villains get boring after a while, and... well, everyone knows why an Anti-Villain is good. They raise (though don't necessarily provide the solution to) nice moral dilemmas, and are generally much more fun to watch and root for if the story spends a significant amount of time on them.

2. Depravity. While Generic Doomsday Villains can get boring, so can grey morality. Sometimes it's just fun to watch a hammy bastard try and murder everyone for shits and giggles.

3. Good execution. For instance, [up][up][up] Hela wasn't a very complex person, but Cate Blanchett's performance and Taika Waititi's script made her instantly more memorable than Ronan or Yellowjacket.

Thanos managed to get a good blend of all of these traits (sympathetic and understandable motives, an utterly insane plan that mostly existed to feed his ego, good performance by Josh Brolin), so he was memorable. Doom naturally has the first two, so as long as they get a good actor and don't make one of the first two traits dominate the other he should continue to be awesome and terrifying.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#123904: Dec 16th 2020 at 6:19:12 PM

Hela could've used more focus, tbh. We ultimately get very little of the story they were trying to tell with her. But then, that's what happens when the middle of the movie is about a separate, completely different story.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#123905: Dec 16th 2020 at 6:20:41 PM

The consequence of half of Ragnarok being a Hulk movie.

Though hey if Gorr winds up a victim of Asgardian imperialism we might get a cameo of her conquering.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#123906: Dec 16th 2020 at 6:22:22 PM

Eh, how else would they have told a Hulk story? tongue

Given how Hela's powers were partially inspired by the All-Black, I wouldn't be surprised if Gorr gets his powers by doing something with her corpse.

Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Dec 16th 2020 at 6:24:06 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#123907: Dec 16th 2020 at 6:23:12 PM

The fact that Ronan literally bathed in the blood of his enemies really should be more memorable.

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#123908: Dec 16th 2020 at 6:31:39 PM

I guess I'm in the small minority that likes Ronan as a villain, even if he's rather one-dimensional.

I kinda wished he had a bigger role in Captain Marvel (2019), mostly so we could see how he descended from a high-ranking member of the Kree army to a radical terrorist.

EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#123909: Dec 16th 2020 at 6:35:18 PM

Agreed, that was probably what I liked least about Captain Marvel.

"Oh, sweet! Ronan's back! Maybe we can actually learn about his motives and descent into genocidal insanity!"

"Holy shit, Coulson's appearing in another movie? Fuck yes!"

"Wow, it's... uh... Djimon Hounsou's character. Okay, that's cool."

Aaaaand they did nothing with them.

Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Dec 16th 2020 at 6:35:48 AM

deuteragonist Since: Dec, 2013
#123910: Dec 16th 2020 at 6:37:08 PM

I agree that Hela could have used more focus, but I feel like part of the reason she is so memorable is because her scenes are limited. She hams it up in every moment she's on screen- taking down entire armies and the main heroes without even batting an eye.

She's just a bad bitch who's fun to watch. She even fits the theme of family drama that was prevalent in the other Thor movies.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#123911: Dec 16th 2020 at 6:39:52 PM

Captain Marvel's most important villain is Yonn-Rogg (sp?). That's whom she wins a moral victory over. The rest are window dressing — or red herrings, like Talos. Ronan isn't someone whose motives we need to worry about. He represents the implacable, destructive power of the Kree empire, and it's a bonus because we already recognize him as a villain. Recycling him saves the film the effort of explaining that he's a bad guy, and it also foreshadows that the Kree themselves are bad (for the viewers who didn't already know).

Edited by Fighteer on Dec 16th 2020 at 9:41:17 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#123912: Dec 16th 2020 at 6:42:32 PM

I know, I know, but it's still feels like a waste to bring back these characters and do absolutely nothing with them. And the sequel is confirmed to be in the present, so the Sequel Hook of Ronan being interested in Carol is similarly useless.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#123913: Dec 16th 2020 at 7:48:04 PM

Ronan is interesting because of his narrative circumstances.

He had to share his film with five heroes' origin stories. A lot of villains (Kaecillius, Yellowjacket, ect.) struggle to make an impression just sharing a film with one hero's. The fact that he came out decently memorable for a character who's ultimately just a final exam for the heroes to prove their teamwork against is impressive.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#123914: Dec 17th 2020 at 12:50:18 AM

Really, he has it way better than Korath.

I like how Captain Marvel almost gave Korath a personality, but not really. He's got exactly two character traits (takes the name Star Lord seriously, never laughs) across two entire movies.

I like Ronan. Separate from the conversation we just had about motivations, I"ve always felt that he makes a good counter to Malekith on how a relatable motivation can help otherwise two dimensional antagonists.

Not to say a motive can't be silly (just look at Thanos). But that, sure, if you're going to do a villain who's kind of throwaway and isn't going to be going through much in the story, you should give them a motivation or backstory that's easy for the audience to latch onto so that they're can follow them pretty easy. But if you're going to give a villain a batshit crazy motivation ("I hate light, and want to destroy it!") that's fine, but commit to it. Silly motivations die when your villain doesn't get much screentime or development. Make us believe that ridiculous motivation, otherwise they're just going to attract jokes.

Like Ego. This is a guy who thinks he is so perfect that all other life in the universe needs to die. That's nuts. So Ego got lots of focus so that they could sell that motivation anyway.

Malekith has basically nothing, which isn't helped by the fact that what he's trying to do is vague and doesn't make a lot of sense. Ronan has very little as well, but at the very least the audience can understand "a zealot from a war, who turned to terrorism when the war ended" and can plug into the guy right away.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 17th 2020 at 12:58:49 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#123915: Dec 17th 2020 at 12:55:22 AM

Waste of a good actor.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#123916: Dec 17th 2020 at 1:06:18 AM

Ego was pretty great. As awful as he is, there’s a compelling tragedy with his character that his crimes all stem from a fear of being meaningless and alone. And the one time he got close to finding meaning with someone else, he panicked and chose to smother them.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#123917: Dec 17th 2020 at 1:21:45 AM

Of course, that's pretty much self-inflicted since he's also so full of himself (it's right there in the name "Ego" after all) that when he first met other people, he found them "disappointing". Presumably because they weren't also giant god-like brain monsters.

Edited by M84 on Dec 17th 2020 at 5:22:17 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#123918: Dec 17th 2020 at 1:42:01 AM

Given other examples like Mahersha Ali and Alfre Woodard we might be able to see them recast Eccleston in another role.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#123919: Dec 17th 2020 at 1:47:06 AM

Also, there's the whole "I'm the only one with the conviction, so I deserve to win" ideology of his, which is blatantly hypocritical given his actions, but delivered in such an understated way that I have heard people believing that the hypocrisy was a mistake on the writers' part and that they actually meant for him to be right about that.

How is this an example of hypocrisy?

They simplified Thanos' goals to be something a bit more grounded and relatable, but I always felt a disconnect between using cosmic powers to solve a mundane issue like overpopulation. The comics had him seeking to curry favor with a cosmic entity, which matched the powers he was using. Making the story focus on preventing Thanos from finishing the gauntlet and stopping one big event helped to mitigate that problem, but kept him from really becoming this godlike threat.

His plan to wipe out half the population of the universe is still there just for different reasons. It's still a cosmic story in that regard and he isn't any less of a threat.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#123920: Dec 17th 2020 at 1:51:42 AM

Much of what Thanos does involves taking away people's ability to fight against him or removing their freedom of choice, while crowing about he's the only one willing to truly fight for what he believes in.

The most obvious example of this is his confrontation with Star-Lord, but most of what he does involves him creatively interpreting situations so that he can say he's the only person in them whose fighting is actually worthwhile.

His treatment of Etri, especially - breaking the deal he coerced, in order to ensure that nobody else will ever have a power that rivals his own - is a pretty nasty indicator of the kind of person he really is.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#123921: Dec 17th 2020 at 1:52:09 AM

Both motivations are kind of petty when you think about it. In the comics, he wanted to kill off half the universe to impress a woman. In the movies, he wanted to kill off half the universe (and later the entire universe) because he's trying to prove he was right to his dead peers.

Disgusted, but not surprised
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#123922: Dec 17th 2020 at 1:57:17 AM

The Mad Titan is a petty, petty, petty man.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#123923: Dec 17th 2020 at 2:01:24 AM

The funny thing is that Wade has a lot more success wooing Death in the comics...because he actually asks her out on dates like a normal person (and Wade is not normal by any means).

Disgusted, but not surprised
Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#123924: Dec 17th 2020 at 2:02:02 AM

What did you expect from The Mad Titan? He may be sympathetic but then again, so was Ganondorf in The Wind Waker. It doesn't make them less evil, only more pitiful since you can see their potential to be good and yet they let themselves go down the dark path and there's no hope of convincing them otherwise.

Edited by Shadao on Dec 17th 2020 at 2:02:15 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#123925: Dec 17th 2020 at 2:03:37 AM

Ganondorf became arguably more pitiful once it was revealed that he's pretty much programmed to be evil since he's the incarnation of a demon's hatred.

Edited by M84 on Dec 17th 2020 at 6:04:02 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised

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