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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#123826: Dec 16th 2020 at 12:10:29 AM

It's a Marvel movie. So they'll be fighting their evil counterpart for the first movie. Super-Skrull confirmed!

C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#123827: Dec 16th 2020 at 12:42:48 AM

I'm for Mole Man as the first FF antagonist. After all, MCU Spiderman's first enemy was the Vulture (like in the comics, if memory serves), so it would make sense to return to basics with the FF as well.

Doom could be a recurring villain across films. After all, very few villains so far have survived the film they were introduced in (apart from Thanos, only Loki and Nebula come to mind, and the latter was more of The Dragon anyway).

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
FGHIK Since: Aug, 2013
#123828: Dec 16th 2020 at 1:33:05 AM

[up][up][up]My problem is, you saw how much "Thanos did nothing wrong" stuff was going around after Infinity War, right? And that was a villain with a ridiculous, obviously flawed evil plan. I'd rather not be seeing that kind of stuff for dictatorships, something that's a problem in real life. Having Doom take over Latveria and make it a better place is about as pro-dictatorship a message as you could get.

It's that Repressive, but Efficient trope I'd have a problem with, not Doom being morally gray.

Edited by FGHIK on Dec 16th 2020 at 2:48:09 PM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#123829: Dec 16th 2020 at 1:51:59 AM

If real life has shown anything about dictators, it’s that nearly all of them become indistinguishable from cartoon villains in the end because of how easy it is for so much unrestrained power to turn a person into their worst impulsive whims.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Dec 16th 2020 at 1:52:23 AM

jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#123830: Dec 16th 2020 at 1:58:42 AM

But then Marvel/the Russos response was to make it abundantly clear that no Thanos was absolutely NOT at all sympathetic when you look objectively at his actual methods and results instead of the version he talks about.

And that would be a similar situation with Doom I imagine. Plenty of kicked puppies and hypocrisy to show that while he is CAPABLE of good, it's only ever pragmatic. Doom does not do altruism.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
Zeromaeus Since: May, 2010
#123831: Dec 16th 2020 at 2:13:57 AM

Doom is the kind of guy that zaps the heroes with Beyonder powers even after he's declared his victory and taken what he wants. It's that desire for more that always ruins him.

djoki996 Since: Dec, 2018
#123832: Dec 16th 2020 at 2:14:17 AM

[up][up][up][up] I mean, considering that previous ruler of Latveria was just as much of a dictator as Doom, and a huge fucking racist on top of that, anyone would have been an improvement.

Edited by djoki996 on Dec 16th 2020 at 2:14:33 AM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#123833: Dec 16th 2020 at 2:18:13 AM

I think that says something about how unlucky that country is.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#123834: Dec 16th 2020 at 2:22:55 AM

Yes, in the comics the original Latverian monarchy was/is pretty much garbage.

Doom's dictatorship offers a lot of benefits like better living standards, education, health insurance...but it's also a place where it's outright illegal to say anything remotely bad about Doom. It's considered sedition, and the penalties are not light. Any Latverian who is caught talking shit about Doom risks life imprisonment.

Edited by M84 on Dec 16th 2020 at 6:23:39 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#123835: Dec 16th 2020 at 2:34:12 AM

A dictator's power is often determined by how much he keeps enough of their population content without starting a rebellion. For Doom to be a successful dictator, he must not give the people any reason to rebel against him beyond restricting "freedom of speech".

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#123836: Dec 16th 2020 at 2:56:55 AM

Whoever ends up playing him, I think it should be somebody with a Romani background.

Edited by Forenperser on Dec 16th 2020 at 2:49:55 PM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
djoki996 Since: Dec, 2018
#123837: Dec 16th 2020 at 3:13:21 AM

[up] Frankly, I would hope he was either played by or have writers consult someone who's European Roma. Since American Romani people just don't go through the same discrimination as European do, and I have doubts on how knowledgeable Americans are about Romani.

Edited by djoki996 on Dec 16th 2020 at 3:14:33 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#123838: Dec 16th 2020 at 3:39:52 AM

[up][up][up]There are occasional rebellions against Doom, but he's usually able to deal with them.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#123839: Dec 16th 2020 at 4:01:55 AM

[up] If he's giving the people better healthcare, jobs, and other economic benefits, then of course the rebellions wouldn't amount to much. It's when you start messing with those aspects that rebellion becomes a full-blown civil war.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#123840: Dec 16th 2020 at 6:47:49 AM

The Dr Doom comic had a Latverian citizen comment that of course they feared Doom and knew he was a dictator but they also liked how the rest of the world feared Doom too much to easily mess with Latveria, a very kicked around country in much of history

Which sure is a take

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#123841: Dec 16th 2020 at 6:52:21 AM

"Yeah, he's a monstrous dictator, but he's also one of the most powerful supervillains on Earth, so at least Russia isn't trying to annex our country."

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#123842: Dec 16th 2020 at 6:53:46 AM

The current Doctor Doom comic had a Latverian meteorologist and her two American colleagues talk about Doom's dictatorship. When the American colleagues bring up the scary parts of Doom's regime like Doombots and such, she simply responds by mentioning all of the benefits that Doom has brought to Latveria.

When her colleagues persist in bringing up the bad shit, she then recites the law of sedition that forbids Latverian citizens from speaking out against Doom. Her colleagues get the message and shut up.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#123843: Dec 16th 2020 at 8:19:01 AM

Latverians always seem to welcome Doom back with open arms whenever he returns from being disposed.

If they wanted to do an evil FF team they could always adapt the U-Foes.

Strangely enough they have never fought the F4 before.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#123844: Dec 16th 2020 at 8:28:54 AM

[up]That's usually because the people who depose him are the remnants of Latveria's horrible monarchy.

Latveria has pretty terrible luck with its leaders.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#123845: Dec 16th 2020 at 8:29:44 AM

“We’ll take the evil we know vs the other worse evil we also know, thank you”

Edited by Bocaj on Dec 16th 2020 at 11:29:55 AM

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#123846: Dec 16th 2020 at 8:38:55 AM

My problem is, you saw how much "Thanos did nothing wrong" stuff was going around after Infinity War, right? And that was a villain with a ridiculous, obviously flawed evil plan. I'd rather not be seeing that kind of stuff for dictatorships, something that's a problem in real life.

We should never be campaigning against more nuanced writing solely because some fans will respond badly to it.

I'd prefer to have a better written Doom and have to ignore a few videos on the internet than a worse written Doom.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 16th 2020 at 8:39:07 AM

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#123847: Dec 16th 2020 at 9:06:36 AM

[up] Yeah, basically if a villain has any nuance beyond being a terrible person who does terrible things for terrible reasons you are going to have some nutters argue that they are in the right.

Heck Killmonger also had people arguing that he was in the right even though his response to injustice and oppression is essentially even more injustice and oppression, just with him and his supporters being the oppressors.

With Doom I think it could be worth saying explicitly at some point that with Doom being as brilliant as he is, he could of easily democratized Latveria after kicking out the monarchy, served a couple terms as head of state, turned it into one of the most prosperous nation on the planet, and then lived out the rest of his life in comfort as a respected statesman.

But no, instead he turned Latveria into his own personal fiefdom that, while technically was better off then it was under the Monarchy by most metrics, isn't really counted among the world's most prosperous countries and he often neglects their needs and even their lives in favor of pursuing some petty grudge. Not to mention the whole "severely punishing anyone who speaks out against him in any way" thing.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#123848: Dec 16th 2020 at 9:11:36 AM

I think that’s a point that the Dr Doom solo and Secret Wars makes

Doom makes Battleworld a hell world with zombies basically out of spite

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#123849: Dec 16th 2020 at 9:17:22 AM

I do agree with this. Because some nutters just want to cheer for the bad guy the moment they show a tiny bit of nuance, even when that nuance doesn't change the fact that....they're still the bad guy.

This may be due to how cynical and misanthropic people are in general these days.

Still, that doesn't mean we shouldn't write some shades of grey. It does mean we have to do it well, but you have to accept the fact that even if well written, some will dislike it, and some will intentionally misconstrue it to fit their own ideals.

One Strip! One Strip!
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#123850: Dec 16th 2020 at 9:22:13 AM

Some will always misinterpret, but that doesn’t mean the intent as written was a worthwhile idea. Infinity War felt like it was straining to make Thanos’s awful plan “sympathetic” and it showed by how Endgame abruptly ditched that angle because it just couldn’t work for the second half of the plot.


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