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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#122501: Nov 4th 2020 at 2:47:29 AM

I'd all for this, even if there are better ways to avert Chromosome Casting than a Chromosome Casting of the opposite gender (is it so hard to have equally distributed teams?). And it would be interesting to have female villains as well (not necessarily as A-Force antagonists). So far the only female Big Bad I can think of is Hela, and that's over 20 movies...

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#122502: Nov 4th 2020 at 3:52:49 AM

Ghost and the kree supreme ?

Edited by miraculous on Nov 4th 2020 at 3:53:15 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#122503: Nov 4th 2020 at 3:58:40 AM

I'd say Ghost was an Anti-Villain at worst.

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#122504: Nov 4th 2020 at 3:59:33 AM

That doesn't mean she isn't a Big Bad. Those tropes aren't mutually exclusive

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#122505: Nov 4th 2020 at 6:06:04 AM

And the Kree Supreme is just a computer program that decided to take on a female appearance.

The legend has returned.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#122506: Nov 4th 2020 at 7:25:15 AM

A Force was working together because a blue girl made of space got involved

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Altris from the Vortex Since: Aug, 2019 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#122507: Nov 4th 2020 at 8:22:41 AM

An all-female Avengers movie seems similar to the infamous "girl power" moment in Endgame, at least in concept. Not saying that it necessarily is, just that the latter taints my personal view of the former (both seeming to me like efforts to give women the spotlight after complaints about their overall lack of representation instead of including them organically).

I'm aware of the Perlmutter years being a big factor in that, but this seems a bit overly reactionary - given that we don't know much about how the Disney shows will turn out, I don't suspect that they'll be building on the backlash. Something that comes to mind is the "Girls Get It Done" thing, which was a direct jab at the Endgame moment - superficial and pushed by the company behind the superheroes to seem progressive.

Or maybe I'm a cynic and Kevin Feige will usher in a new era of diversity, which I would very much like.

So, let's hang an anchor from the sun... also my Tumblr
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#122508: Nov 4th 2020 at 8:56:04 AM

Random thing I'm posting about because I just learned about it. So, I read some discussions recently about Sokovia and the take that it was supposed to be in the Balkans, which I've always liked, because I thought of a parallel between Latveria and Dubrovnik.

However, on the less sunny side of things, I learned that Zemo's elite premilitary unit/death squad is called "Scorpion", which is seemingly taken from this colorful group of Serbian war criminals.

I find it kind of a troubling development, because although Villainy Discretion Shot was definitely in play for Zemo's pre-AOU activities, in light of this knowledge, I'm way less comfortable with his overall sympathetic presentation.

Edited by Hodor2 on Nov 4th 2020 at 10:59:51 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#122509: Nov 4th 2020 at 11:03:57 AM

That doesn't mean she isn't a Big Bad. Those tropes aren't mutually exclusive

Plotwise, Ghost wasn't really a Big Bad, either. She wasn't in particular control of the plot, and it's arguable that she wasn't the main source of antagonism the characters faced during the story.

Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#122510: Nov 4th 2020 at 11:08:01 AM

Not to mention her reasons to be antagonistic kind of end in her first movie. Unless she pulls another motive, who even knows what they'll do with her then.

Wake me up at your own risk.
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#122511: Nov 4th 2020 at 11:17:36 AM

[up][up] That's a concern I've had myself lately. Mind you, The Boys still played the "girls get it done" moment straight later on.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#122512: Nov 4th 2020 at 11:36:08 AM

No, Ghost was absolutely the Big Bad of Ant-Man and The Wasp. There isn't really much of a plot without her, her grudge and drive makes up a huge amount of the story of the film.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#122513: Nov 4th 2020 at 11:38:55 AM

That's doesn't make her the Big Bad though. The Big Bad implies a character who is actively in control of what is going on, not simply a villain who is especially prominent.

Ghost shares the antagonistic role with Sonny Burch (who is arguably more in control of it than she is, but is less prominent), and is largely being opportunistic.

There was a similar conversation ages ago in the Frozen thread on whether Hans could be considered a Big Bad that tried to explore this, and the consensus was ultimately that he wasn't for much of the same reasons.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#122514: Nov 4th 2020 at 12:07:00 PM

Sonny is very reactionary, he goes after Ant-Man and The Wasp because they stole something from him and he wants it back. He's not really portrayed as a serious threat. Ghost is active, she directly interferes with our hero's plans multiple times and goes after them relentlessly. She also has superpowers and is treated like a serious threat.

In Guardians 2 terms, Sonny is The Sovereign while Ghost is Ego. Just because Ghost is sympathetic and does a Heel–Face Turn at the end doesn't make her not the Big Bad of the film.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Nov 4th 2020 at 1:07:38 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#122515: Nov 4th 2020 at 12:39:53 PM

I didn't say Ghost wasn't the Big Bad because she had a Heel–Face Turn. I said she wasn't the Big Bad because she doesn't really control the plot. She's just going along with it the same as everyone else.

Sonny is very reactionary, he goes after Ant-Man and The Wasp because they stole something from him and he wants it back. He's not really portrayed as a serious threat.

Being in control and being a serious threat aren't really the same thing. That Sonny is the one who has been controlling the flow of Pym's tech, and who orchestrates the FBI problem at the halfway point and creates the situation that complicates their trap for Ghost in the end, at least puts him as the antagonist with the most amount of sway over the direction the plot goes - though that said, I wouldn't call him the movie's big bad Big Bad either.

In Guardians 2 terms, Sonny is The Sovereign while Ghost is Ego.

I don't think that's an especially good comparison. The gripe the Sovereign had with the Guardians had nothing to do with the main plot at all (they're essentially starter villains who suddenly show up again at the climax), whereas Sonny is actively pursuing the same things as the protagonists.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Nov 4th 2020 at 12:44:25 PM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#122516: Nov 4th 2020 at 12:42:47 PM

The central conflict of AM&TW is bringing Janet back from the Quantum Realm. Ghost disrupts the attempt, but she is not responsible for the accident causing Janet to be trapped in the first place.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#122517: Nov 4th 2020 at 12:53:50 PM

Sonny Burch is more comical than Ghost but I'd argue at the climax of the film, both he and Ghost are equally serving as Big Bads.

Just because he's not as scary doesn't mean he (or at least the aggregate of his armed goons) aren't posing a major threat in the three-way final battle/car chase.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#122518: Nov 4th 2020 at 3:46:50 PM

@windleopard That is part of the joke.

First The Boys make fun of how inorganic and weird Endgame's girl power moment but when they actually do it in the season finale it actually works due to a variety of reasons such as the girls actually having a reason to work together compared to Endgame effectively having a bunch of strangers suddenly teaming up.

Also it should be noted that the Ant-Wasp page explicitly notes Big Bad Ensemble for the film. So both Sonny and Ghost are the main threats.

Edited by slimcoder on Nov 4th 2020 at 3:48:44 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#122520: Nov 5th 2020 at 1:35:33 AM

Come on, the women had a very valid reason for working together during the "girl power" moment in Endgame. They had just seen a kid being threatened, so their maternal instinct kicked in and they all converged to protect the poor lamb.

That being said, I don't see why most of the women in Avengers would have a problem working together. Okoye, Nakia and Shuri already do, and during the 5 years skip, there has probably been some interaction between Okoye, Nebula and Carol. I would certainly expect a lot of snark between Shuri and Hope, and of course Gamora needs to redo her Character Development, but I don't see any particular opposition that could rise between them, at least at first.

Edited by C105 on Nov 5th 2020 at 10:39:44 AM

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#122521: Nov 5th 2020 at 3:31:07 AM

Did we find out who Richard e Grant is playing in the show ?

Hoping for Old loki personally ?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#122522: Nov 5th 2020 at 8:29:26 AM

[up] Not yet. I think some of us thought Grant would be either Old Loki or Kang or Immortus, but Ant-Man 3 quashed that second one.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#122523: Nov 5th 2020 at 9:01:53 AM

I admit, if they were going to do that scene, maybe the best way to do it is to not bring so much attention to it. Like, have Carol going in, and many of the other ladies just lend a hand, maybe taking out an enemy that Carol didn't notice, so she can focus more attention on getting the glove to the van, so it comes off more as them just helping in a battle where everyone has probably needed help at some point rather than girls get it done.

I'm in a weird place with that scene, in that while I get it's kinda ham handed, I also don't mind it too. Sure, some people say that Carol didn't need the help, but in that situation, even one mook landing a lucky hit would have lost them that fight. Hell, for all her power, Thanos still managed to destroy the portal, and then take the glove from her.

So yeah, any extra hand was a welcome hand.

I also think that considering the issues with female lead movies, the pushback against them, and a lot of the shit women take in media (and in life) as a whole, they decided to be blatant about it as they did on purpose.

One Strip! One Strip!
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#122525: Nov 5th 2020 at 9:21:49 AM

I’ve come to not mind the scene, but only for ironic reasons. I too would charge against a massive alien army for Tom Holland.

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)

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