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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#122251: Oct 29th 2020 at 2:37:42 AM

Part of it I think is that Joker's Batman's Arch-Enemy. Given how hyped up Batman is, they gotta hype up his arch foe too.

Bullseye otoh is Daredevil's Arch-Enemy (one of the contenders anyway). Daredevil doesn't have the same rep in-universe or out as Batman does in the DCU.

Disgusted, but not surprised
AmazingSpiderHam Since: Sep, 2020
#122252: Oct 29th 2020 at 3:35:03 AM

Well, one thing with Joker is that he's basically the man with nothing to lose, so as soon as he's made others miserable, he wins.

Take all of his money away, he won't care (unlike Kingpin or Osborn; granted, that wasn't the case in the animated series, where it did hurt him), beat him up, he won't mind, he's got no loved ones to be hurt through, Depending on the Writer he doesn't even have any real pride to offend through a defeat (being willing to laugh at himself) so even a humiliation is something he'll bounce back from.

He 'wins' by virtue of being a hollow person who can't experience any real human joys, which is something a smart writer might explore, but they won't.

Edited by AmazingSpiderHam on Oct 29th 2020 at 3:35:18 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#122253: Oct 29th 2020 at 3:41:13 AM

Batman being one of the big Three of the DCU, his Arch-Enemy has to be suitably epic. In-universe it kind of makes sense - part of Joker's rep is that he's Batman's most persistent foe.

Matt Murdock otoh is a street-level Marvel Hero who is sometimes mistaken for being a non-powered one (not everyone knows he's a blind man who has Super-Senses that compensate for said blindness). He's not one of the iconic Marvel Heroes. So his Arch-Enemy doesn't need to be hyped up as The Dreaded of the entire Marvel verse. Though in-universe, Bullseye and Kingpin (the top contenders for Matt's Arch-Enemy) are indeed feared in the criminal underworld.

Disgusted, but not surprised
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#122254: Oct 29th 2020 at 3:49:59 AM

The funniest thing is, beating the Joker truly is pretty easy.

Just laugh at him. As Terry showed, like any comedian Joker hates a heckler.

As long as you treat him like he's nothing then you have beaten. Treating him like he is a big deal worthy of fear is exactly playing into his hands.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#122255: Oct 29th 2020 at 3:53:33 AM

Basically, yeah.

The Joker is more or less just an Attention Whore taken Up To Eleven.

I don't know if there is Marvel villain like that (to get back to topic).

Edited by Forenperser on Oct 29th 2020 at 11:53:52 AM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#122256: Oct 29th 2020 at 3:54:25 AM

[up][up]More specifically, Terry heckled the Joker. Even a good comedian can struggle to maintain composure when heckled...and the Joker's a lousy comedian.

[up]Arcade probably.

Edited by M84 on Oct 29th 2020 at 6:55:27 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
FGHIK Since: Aug, 2013
#122257: Oct 29th 2020 at 3:56:01 AM

[up][up][up] You'd better outmatch him in a fight though. And not have anyone you care about he could target. Otherwise he will get revenge.

Edited by FGHIK on Oct 29th 2020 at 5:56:16 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#122258: Oct 29th 2020 at 4:00:09 AM

I mean Joker is generally a mediocre fighter.

Which contrasts with Bullseye is actually capable of holding his own in a direct confrontation with any sort of assistance.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#122259: Oct 29th 2020 at 4:02:07 AM

I guess Doctor Doom also really wants attention too. Comes with the whole god complex.

Disgusted, but not surprised
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#122260: Oct 29th 2020 at 4:06:48 AM

It is a more specific validation though, he wants to prove that he is supreme to Reed no matter what.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#122261: Oct 29th 2020 at 4:08:38 AM

Though that has been toned down in certain stories, especially the recent ones.

Doom is capable of noble deeds and he actually has people he cares about, in stark contrast to the Joker.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#122262: Oct 29th 2020 at 4:09:13 AM

To quote Michael Weston from Burn Notice:

"Spend time with corrupt homicidal third world political figures and you hear a lot of self pity. What kind of man throws his political enemies in prison and tortures them to death? Usually it’s a guy who feels so sorry for himself, he feels justified doing anything. Killers, by and large, are whining losers. But that doesn’t make them any less dangerous.”

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#122263: Oct 29th 2020 at 4:12:48 AM

[up][up]Granted, that happened after he finally admitted to himself and to Reed that Reed was smarter than him.

Disgusted, but not surprised
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#122264: Oct 29th 2020 at 4:17:05 AM

My favorite moment in Secret Wars.

All of reality is crashing down around them as literally everyone alive or unalive is in a massive brawl with each other & Doom after making himself God & stealing Reed’s family, finally finally admits that he is smarter than him.

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 29th 2020 at 4:17:42 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#122265: Oct 29th 2020 at 9:59:47 AM

RE: Bullseye and Batman:

It amuses me to no end how 2003!Bullseye started off terrorizing one Batman and then a different Batman many years later.

Edited by TargetmasterJoe on Oct 29th 2020 at 10:00:18 AM

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#122266: Oct 29th 2020 at 1:55:16 PM

As long as you treat him like he's nothing then you have beaten. Treating him like he is a big deal worthy of fear is exactly playing into his hands.

That reminds me of this scene from TAS.

Altris from the Vortex Since: Aug, 2019 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
AmazingSpiderHam Since: Sep, 2020
#122268: Oct 29th 2020 at 2:56:20 PM

Joker is full of himself. Most people criticizing his comedy won't faze him, he'll just retort the heckler is dumb and doesn't get it.

An actually good quipper who can outdo him would do the trick, though (Terry, IMHO, got under his skin mostly on account of being a Batman). A Deadpool or Spider-Man could induce an epic breakdown on him, and it's a pity the actual Batman/Spider-Man crossover didn't go there.

Edited by AmazingSpiderHam on Oct 29th 2020 at 2:57:18 AM

Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#122269: Oct 29th 2020 at 2:59:51 PM

Surprising they don't use Nightwing for it. Come on, you have an actual circus kid and he doesn't mock the hell out of the second rate clown he keeps running into? It's like they are scared of ridiculing the Joker.

[up][up] It's scary to think how old many of the Marvel leads are.

Edited by Blueace on Oct 29th 2020 at 7:00:30 AM

Wake me up at your own risk.
AmazingSpiderHam Since: Sep, 2020
#122270: Oct 29th 2020 at 3:07:01 PM

Oh, back in the Silver and Golden Ages, when Dick was a cocky brat, he would often mock the Joker to no end. A pity classic Dick's jokes were so lame, more often than not.

Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#122271: Oct 29th 2020 at 3:07:07 PM

Also, Bullseye is in that position where he has other people who can take the claim for Daredevil's arch enemy, mostly Kingpin.

They killed Doc Ock off twice in the comics because Green Goblin and formerly Venom were equally as big villains.

Joker doesn't really have competition for Batman's main enemy, and he hasn't since the 70's. Bullseye never really had that status.

Altris from the Vortex Since: Aug, 2019 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#122272: Oct 29th 2020 at 3:10:26 PM

[up]x3 I had no idea Paul Rudd was 51. Before this I would have pegged him as being in mid-to-late thirties

So, let's hang an anchor from the sun... also my Tumblr
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#122273: Oct 29th 2020 at 3:21:18 PM

[up]

Yeah, I was surprised to learn how old Rudd was too.

An actually good quipper who can outdo him would do the trick, though (Terry, IMHO, got under his skin mostly on account of being a Batman). A Deadpool or Spider-Man could induce an epic breakdown on him, and it's a pity the actual Batman/Spider-Man crossover didn't go there.

I would actually say the reason it got under his skin is because he didn't consider Terry Batman.

He even says as much during that final battle when Terry asks him why he's so mad since he's always wanted to make Batman laugh.

One Strip! One Strip!
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#122274: Oct 29th 2020 at 3:37:44 PM

Imagine if it turned out the reason Joker never seemed to die is that his consciousness was something Catmus had on file,add in cloning technology and..and you have unkillable super villain

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#122275: Oct 29th 2020 at 3:39:52 PM

I do remember one Marvel/DC crossover where the Joker goes from cocky to afraid when he realizes that yes, the Punisher actually will kill him, and isn't bluffing.

Sadly Batman saves the Joker right before Frank pulls the trigger point-blank.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Oct 29th 2020 at 6:40:25 AM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!

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