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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#121726: Oct 4th 2020 at 7:16:45 PM

Well better than Garth Ennies considering Cap a massive insult to soldiers, especially WWII soldiers despite being extremely popular with the latter group.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
AmazingSpiderHam Since: Sep, 2020
#121727: Oct 4th 2020 at 7:19:53 PM

Then again, Garth Ennis considers all superheroes but Superman a major insult to everything.

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#121728: Oct 4th 2020 at 7:26:01 PM

[up][up]Jack Kirby made a bunch of Cap comics to fill the backlog while he fought on the front lines as a recon trooper. The dude liberated concentration camps. He gets a pass on writing about soldiers (and the experience of the war also explains his writing of despots as Small Name, Big Ego types).

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#121729: Oct 4th 2020 at 7:26:33 PM

It’s just the thing with Cap is even dumber since Garth is apparently a WWII buff. This note on the shallow character trope on The Boys page about the Captain America parody Soldier Boy is pretty telling.

Soldier Boy is a Captain Patriotic a la Steve Rogers, presented by Garth Ennis as a mockery and insult to The Real Heroes of World War II. The problem is that Captain America was a Propaganda Hero created by Joe Simon and Jack Kirby before America entered World War II and was a bold anti-fascist gesture in context, especially since Simon and Kirby received threats from Nazi sympathizers, who hated the Captain America comics. Likewise, Kirby, who drew Captain America and later revived him as a soldier out of time in The Avengers, served as a soldier in the US Infantry during the war; more specifically, he served as a draftsman for reconnaissance maps. The comics which Ennis mocks were popular with actual American servicemen of the time; for example, Captain Marvel, whose Expy he makes into a Nazi hero called Stormfront, was extremely popular among American GI. So in other words, Ennis, a World War II-buff, is merely projecting his own ideas and values on to those of an earlier generation without actually engaging with it.

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 4th 2020 at 7:27:43 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
AmazingSpiderHam Since: Sep, 2020
#121730: Oct 4th 2020 at 7:32:58 PM

Well, Ennis is one of those guys who start from a preconceived view of the world and the medium and then rearrange everything so it falls into that view. If you don't fall into that view, then you're wrong because you're part of the problem.

Like, he has a starting point on how superheroes monopolize the medium so much, but then lets his hate boner for the genre go so far that it trivializes the point he originally had. Also, he probably idealizes warfare more than he should; even the armies with the 'noblest' causes have pulled their fair share of morally despicable actions through campaigns, worse than the average caped crusader does in the pages of a given comicbook.

Edited by AmazingSpiderHam on Oct 4th 2020 at 7:33:35 AM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#121731: Oct 4th 2020 at 7:46:52 PM

Ennis holds some very toxic beliefs on warfare and masculinity. His opinion on pretty much anything is to be taken with a entire mine's worth of salt.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#121732: Oct 4th 2020 at 7:49:24 PM

Its rather interesting to compare comic Billy Butcher to his show version.

In the comics as I believe Butcher is more respected & holds absolute command over his team.

While in the show damn near everyone flat out dislikes him & even his own entire crew regularly argues against him for...... well every single one of his faults.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#121733: Oct 4th 2020 at 7:52:37 PM

[up][up]At times Ennis almost (almost) seems to be self-aware of this. He'll sometimes show how messed up characters who act like his "ideal" man would actually be, though he'll still try to make us sympathize with them.

Take for example Jesse Custer of Preacher. It's gradually shown throughout the series that he's got a distorted sense of what being a good man means due to his horrific upbringing by the abusive Jodie (though he still had a strong moral compass due to never letting go of his father John's last words to him telling Jesse he had to be one of the good guys). His Character Development consists of him realizing that he needs to let go of these ideas to the point of finally letting himself cry while asking Tulip to give him one last chance.

And that's not even getting into Cassidy. Let's just say that when God named him Beast, he lived down to that name.

[up] The comic only really points out how utterly fucked up Butcher is in its final arc. To the point of trying to commit genocide. Butcher even has a final speech where he admits he's an utterly fucked up person and how Hughie's a better person since, like Butcher's late brother, he was a "decent fucking bloke".

Edited by M84 on Oct 4th 2020 at 10:57:00 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#121734: Oct 4th 2020 at 9:30:38 PM

Seriously a Goddamn 8-page spread. How many times does Quicksilver appear on this image?

From my count, 9.

One Strip! One Strip!
jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#121735: Oct 5th 2020 at 1:46:03 AM

The mention of Kirby and his writing of despotic type villains reminds me of a (possibly apocryphal) anecdote I once heard that apparently some fascist/far-right type barged into the Marvel office of the time and demanded to see/fight the writer/artist he'd got a beef with. When Kirby actually did go down, spoiling for a fight, the guy had done a runner.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#121736: Oct 5th 2020 at 3:12:58 AM

Also, he probably idealizes warfare more than he should; even the armies with the 'noblest' causes have pulled their fair share of morally despicable actions through campaigns, worse than the average caped crusader does in the pages of a given comicbook.

I don't know if Ennis can be accused of idealizing warfare. He tends to portray it as very damaging to people, especially the soldiers.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#121737: Oct 5th 2020 at 3:15:54 AM

And here’s some more of Bryan Hitch’s spreads on Ultimates.

https://marswillsendnomore.wordpress.com/2013/02/07/ultimates-2-gallery-bryan-hitch-double-splashes/

[up][up][up] Damn.

Man it makes me miss Quicksilver. Shame they killed him off because the Foxmen were using him too.

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 5th 2020 at 3:16:41 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#121738: Oct 5th 2020 at 3:24:56 AM

The forgotten avenger

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#121739: Oct 5th 2020 at 3:31:02 AM

What makes it worse is that Fox wound up doing jackall with Pietro.

Aside from a slowmo action scene once per movie, he barley anything at all. Little screen time, he got fucking sent into a coma early into Dark Phoenix, & he had no major scenes with Magneto, with their relationship basically going unmentioned.

MCU killed off Pietro for nothing.

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 5th 2020 at 3:31:53 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#121740: Oct 5th 2020 at 3:38:20 AM

Basically, the problem with Fox's Quicksilver is that he's way too powerful.

C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#121741: Oct 5th 2020 at 3:41:43 AM

Then again, speedsters are very tricky to handle because of their Story-Breaker Power.([nja][up])

Even when they stay live, they have an annoying tendency to be put out of commission by tripping over something (Flash in Justice League), or by an opponent who somehow manages to be faster than them (Flash in Justice League), or by having some limitation on the way their power works (Flash, I mean Yo-yo in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. until the last few episodes of the series anyway).

But at least Quicksilver could come back some day through either Wanda's reality alterations or simply by bringing back his time clone like Gamorra.

Edited by C105 on Oct 5th 2020 at 12:42:06 PM

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#121742: Oct 5th 2020 at 3:45:20 AM

[up][up] Pretty much.

Honestly its hilarious looking back at how I used to praise Fox-silver as the better for being more powerful & his over the top action scenes that my opinions actually reversed now.

Foxsilver is just a bunch of action scenes. There's not really much of any substance to him, no character arcs or anything.

M-silver while I'm not saying he's a fantastic character, arguably does have substance to him through his relationship to his sister, & fellow desire to redeem himself after working with Ultron due to being inspired by Hawkeye. Which did lead to a completion of an arc in sacrificing his life to rescue Hawkeye even if it was obviously to get rid of hin.

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 5th 2020 at 3:45:40 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#121743: Oct 5th 2020 at 4:09:35 AM

On the other hand,Fragile Speedster exists for a reason,its just their story breaking powers get more focus because of how they effect the plot

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#121744: Oct 5th 2020 at 4:42:03 AM

I’m still hoping it’s Fox Quicksilver in Wandavision.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#121745: Oct 5th 2020 at 4:47:44 AM

Quicksilver isn't as overpowered as the Flash so he has that going for him in terms of managing power level.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#121746: Oct 5th 2020 at 4:59:29 AM

Man the Avengers game should have had Scarlet Witch & Quicksilver in the base game/team.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#121747: Oct 5th 2020 at 5:11:04 AM

How is that game ? I've heard....mixed opinions ?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#121748: Oct 5th 2020 at 6:32:30 AM

Monetized to all hell, gameplay nothing special, every hero but Kamala looks wrong...

Disgusted, but not surprised
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#121749: Oct 5th 2020 at 6:33:33 AM

Basically Mv C infinite again. Dang.

Ah Well spiderman ps4 still remains the gold standard of marvel video games.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#121750: Oct 5th 2020 at 8:23:44 AM

The writing for MODOK is surprisingly good for both this ridiculously average game and the character himself.

The legend has returned.

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