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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#120751: Sep 4th 2020 at 4:08:03 PM

We should venn diagram Thor and Captain America and try to figure out worthy.

.... bearrrrrd?

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#120752: Sep 4th 2020 at 4:15:32 PM

Oh yeah I feel like T'challa is (or was) definitely worthy too.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#120753: Sep 4th 2020 at 4:20:58 PM

As far as Tony goes, don’t get me wrong I think he’s a good guy and I think there is a decent argument that he made the morally right choice, but leaving everyone with the trauma of The Snap so he wouldn’t lose his daughter is pretty selfish (but very understandable) behavior.

Honestly though Clint and Wanda are my only hard No’s among The Avengers.

warrior93 warrior93 from North Carolina Since: Feb, 2011
warrior93
#120754: Sep 4th 2020 at 4:29:56 PM

If Captain America become more worthy over time then how would he have known to summon Thor's Hammer in Endgame?

Place your past in a book burn the pages let them cook.
MrSeyker Since: Apr, 2011
#120755: Sep 4th 2020 at 4:35:21 PM

My take is that Cap was always worthy, EXCEPT during the AOU party, due to the surrounding circumstances.

C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#120756: Sep 4th 2020 at 4:40:28 PM

Or Mjölnir reacted on its own. Or Thor pushed it towards Cap.

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#120757: Sep 4th 2020 at 4:45:30 PM

Age of Ultron revealed Cap's hypocrisy in certain things, which Civil War further highlighted.

I feel like he was only able to lift it in Endgame after patching things up with Tony and acknowledging that he made mistakes.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#120758: Sep 4th 2020 at 4:46:39 PM

I always thought he was worthy in AOU but played it off.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#120759: Sep 4th 2020 at 4:50:28 PM

Yeah, my understanding in AOU is that Cap could lift it, but he chose to pretend he couldn’t in order to not embarrass Thor. You can see the hammer start to move as he’s lifting it and Thor is a little shaken by this. Thor’s response to Cap lifting it later is “I knew it!”

Leviticus 19:34
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#120760: Sep 4th 2020 at 4:51:13 PM

During Civil War at least, I feel that he definitely would not have been able to.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#120761: Sep 4th 2020 at 4:51:54 PM

Think of it like Luke teaching out for his lightsaber while frozen to a ceiling, sort of moment

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jouXIII The One Who Knows Many Things from Between the Multiverses (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#120763: Sep 4th 2020 at 5:20:38 PM

It learns to love long division

Edited by Bocaj on Sep 4th 2020 at 8:20:46 AM

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
FGHIK Since: Aug, 2013
#120764: Sep 4th 2020 at 5:23:06 PM

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#120765: Sep 4th 2020 at 8:21:33 PM

Age of Ultron revealed Cap's hypocrisy in certain things, which Civil War further highlighted.

How did Age of Ultron reveal Cap's hypocrisy? I remember him having the high ground on Stark's whole "let's lie to the team and develop SKYNET without telling anybody" plan.

EDIT: Ok, Cap was all "we do this together" and then in Civil War he strolls off with Bucky. But, I mean, he did form a new "together" while Stark formed his own "together."

Edited by FOFD on Sep 4th 2020 at 8:22:16 AM

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#120766: Sep 4th 2020 at 8:23:49 PM

Would Spidey be able to lift it?

The legend has returned.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#120767: Sep 4th 2020 at 8:25:37 PM

Yes but only at the end of Far From Home.

Its the armpit webs.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#120768: Sep 5th 2020 at 3:35:08 AM

[up][up][up] Ultron pointed out that Cap always preaches peace and love, but deep down needs a war to fight to feel whole. He couldn't do anything but gulp silently as a response. And his dialogue with Tony later also showed that he basically looks for an excuse not to disband the team.

In Civil War off course, his hypocrisy went a step further, with him keeping secrets despite preaching transparency.

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AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#120769: Sep 5th 2020 at 3:43:45 AM

With the exception of the characters specifically introduced there, I find it strange in general that so many people are keen on holding AOU's particular portrayal of characters against them, especially considering just how aggressively Whedon was Armed with Canon, and how at odds it tends to be with the other films and their different writers, who for the most part are willing to acknowledge the plot elements of the film for continuity/fanservice reasons but are otherwise eager to gloss over the characterization elements aside from the most Broad Strokes.

Edited by AlleyOop on Sep 5th 2020 at 6:47:29 AM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#120770: Sep 5th 2020 at 3:48:32 AM

Well Civil War did follow up with these plot points, and honestly except for that icky rape joke Tony made, I didn't see anything that was like a super betrayal OOC moment in that movie.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#120771: Sep 5th 2020 at 3:58:54 AM

[up] Honestly, that icky rape joke about what Tony would do if he got the hammer, i pin on Whedon than Stark.

Like sure Stark doesn't exactly have the greatest track record but even he wouldn't joke about that i feel.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#120772: Sep 5th 2020 at 5:27:40 AM

One intersting thing is that, since últron here is tony unfettred, that opinión of cap is propably the same one Tony have on in: that cap is a weapon wanting to justify ítself.

Which make the whole peter "he told me you think you are right and that make you dangerous" in a new light.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#120773: Sep 5th 2020 at 5:32:50 AM

Which for me shows the difference between these two best and their respective flaws.

Tony tends to overthink a problem, while Cap just runs off into action.

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wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#120774: Sep 5th 2020 at 8:12:53 AM

As for other characters who could've been considered Worthy:

  • The Falcon (absolutely)
  • Heimdall (probably)
  • Doctor Strange (maybe)
  • Scott Lang (maybe)

Also, Cap was definitely worthy in AOU. We hear and see the hammer move, we see Thor react and be relieved, and we see Cap's hands slide a bit as he's not maintaining a strong grip of trying to pull. When has the hammer ever been anything other than "All or Nothing"?

I have strong doubts Vision is still worthy. In fact I'm almost certain he isn't. For the day he used it, Vision was still basically a newborn with the ability to lead. He had some world experience from the internet, but wasn't corrupted by it, yes. But actual life experience could've corrupted him by then. And by the time he sided with Team Tony, with his "equation that is based on bad math that shifts responsibility for our actions", and his "put Wanda under involuntary house arrest without telling her", he's definitely pushing it. Worthiness doesn't mean sainthood, but a big part of it is proper application of power, decisions on when to use it, and responsibility for its use.

[up][up]Peter's line there is a line fed to him by Tony, that can easily describe Tony himself, which handily gets Peter not to ask questions that would have him realize Cap's philosophy falls far more in line with the "with great power comes great responsibility" belief Peter had already espoused (which caused Tony's own guilty look in that scene.

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Sep 5th 2020 at 10:19:41 AM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#120775: Sep 5th 2020 at 8:18:52 AM

In the comics? A lot

Before Thor became worthy he tried to pick it up a lot and sometimes managed to shift it or lift it up a little before having to drop it again

In the movies? AOU apparently

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