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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#119926: Aug 8th 2020 at 2:28:49 PM

Well, that certainly is a list without dates or context.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#119927: Aug 8th 2020 at 2:31:03 PM

Like I said Carol is someone worth considering.

Caring about being too mean to Sally is the narrative equivalent of worrying about stepping on an ant.

Edited by slimcoder on Aug 8th 2020 at 2:31:29 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#119928: Aug 8th 2020 at 2:32:02 PM

Floyd's first appearance had her putting herself at danger by writing about mutants when there was a serial killer out there who eventually targeted here.

Frontline came later.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#119929: Aug 8th 2020 at 2:32:16 PM

[up][up] The problem is the mentality itself, and it's worth addressing every time it comes up. As I said before, nothing good ever comes from it.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 8th 2020 at 2:36:11 AM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#119930: Aug 8th 2020 at 2:35:04 PM

[up][up]And like I said, Batman's first appearance had him as a gun-toting killer.

There are obvious, stand-out OOC moments (like most heroes in events) and there is Characterization Marches On.

Sally Floyd falls into the latter category in my opinon.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#119931: Aug 8th 2020 at 2:36:52 PM

Ok but that doesnt invalidate the original point. If anything, it supports it.

There's absolutely nothing stopping her from being used well in the future.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#119932: Aug 8th 2020 at 2:38:50 PM

And like I said, Batman's first appearance had him as a gun-toting killer.

The extent to which Prototype Bat-Man is relevant to the characteristics of the Batman we saw not even a year or so later is typically exaggerated. Batman as we know him wasn't originally a gun-toter. The basic concept was pitched as a very different character that didn't pan out, so they quickly reimagined, re-named, and reconceived it and released the Batman we know as a new concept.

Developmentally, it's a very different process from Characterization Marches On.

But even so it - if anything - is exactly what we're talking about. If a character is written in a way that doesn't work, the smart hitting to do is to do exactly what happened to prototype Bat-Man. Move on and ignore it, and focus on what works instead.

Or more concisely, what [up] said. [nja]'d.

Looking up the character, from what I've seen Sally Floyd has alternated between being portrayed as "reporter who asks the tough questions" and "Take That! to Civil War" ever since, so it doesn't look like an actual example of Characterization Marches On. It just looks like a minor character with indecisive use.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 8th 2020 at 2:41:11 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#119933: Aug 8th 2020 at 2:44:55 PM

Why can't she just be a hatable asshole though?

I mean Namor is a total unlikable douchebag but thats not a bad thing. Its good to have Hate Sink characters.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#119934: Aug 8th 2020 at 2:49:31 PM

I mean, she could be. Nobody's stopping anyone from writing her as an asshat either. What I'm saying is that she isn't - even since, if the indecisiveness I'm seeing about her scant later appearances is true. Some writers writer has as competent, some write her as an idiot.

But more on a macro level, I'm saying that acting as if she has to be a hateable character because she was mishandled by one bad writer isn't a great way to look at comic characters.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 8th 2020 at 2:51:56 AM

Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#119935: Aug 8th 2020 at 2:52:31 PM

Too bad it's her biggest moment, and some characters tend to be defined by their highlights. Then again, these days, antagonists in the press wouldn't seem too out of place.

Edited by Blueace on Aug 8th 2020 at 6:18:45 AM

Wake me up at your own risk.
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#119936: Aug 8th 2020 at 3:00:18 PM

Floyd's first appearance had her putting herself at danger by writing about mutants when there was a serial killer out there who eventually targeted here.

Frontline came later.

And in that story she was dealing with the death of her daughter and her alcoholism, by the end of the story she started to going to AA meetings.

Edited by Cortez on Aug 8th 2020 at 7:50:24 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#119937: Aug 8th 2020 at 3:04:46 PM

[up][up]

<Has just finished bingeing Hank Pym's post Jan slapping moments and realizes how true this is>

....This is true.

And blaming characters because of how she was written in was book is beyond silly. It also seems to happen a lot with female characters.

Oooh. Did not consider that. In my defence, I did point out that they should fix her too. And I also admitted that I'm usually all for fixing characters with bad characterization rather than tossing them out, because if not, it would promote a very bad habit of killing off anyone the moment they have even one bad bit of writing.

Like I said Carol is someone worth considering.

Caring about being too mean to Sally is the narrative equivalent of worrying about stepping on an ant.

For all you know, there's somebody who feels the same about Carol. Like....Hell, I think there was a time where nobody thought all that much of Carol. She didn't really start trying to ascend as a character until the Post House of M era, which has culminated in her current existence as Captain Marvel, after years of being Ms. Binary Warbird Marvel.

Everybody is an ant to somebody Slim. Everybody.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Aug 8th 2020 at 4:06:15 AM

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#119938: Aug 8th 2020 at 3:07:55 PM

[up] To equate Carol & Sally on equal grounds is false.

Sally is a supporting even tertiary character who makes sparse appearances over the course of multiple years.

Carol has history, story-lines, complex character relationships, a whole shit-bang of things that makes her objectively more valuable than Sally who's inherently replaceable.

Edited by slimcoder on Aug 8th 2020 at 3:08:20 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#119939: Aug 8th 2020 at 3:09:40 PM

I mean, what's being equated here isn't the characters' history, but the way the fans are looking at them.

There are absolutely people who the same thing with Carol. Same as every character who was put into a crappy but famous comic that played them out of character. "It doesn't matter if it's a famous character" just kind of deflects from it, especially since people still do it all the time.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 8th 2020 at 3:11:23 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#119940: Aug 8th 2020 at 4:16:43 PM

I mean, if there's a difference, it's that Carol has probably had some good stories that are pretty well known.

I don't think Sally has had that at all. She has more of an uphill battle. But then again, Hank's had great stories, but eventually, it was all wife beating, all the time with him. He's dead now, after the whole Ultron merger thing, and I don't think he went out well.

The fact is any character can be elevated by someone caring enough to try, while any character can be tossed under all the buses through a combination of not doing the research from a writer and Eight Deadly Words from a fan.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Aug 8th 2020 at 5:17:11 AM

One Strip! One Strip!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#119942: Aug 8th 2020 at 5:26:35 PM

IIRC her 2016 run is pretty well received. I only have a volume of it so far, but I think it's pretty rad.

One thing it has that I hope the sequels put in is sprawling space opera-esque scenes of Carol fighting alongside squadrons of space fighters.

Though there's lot of science fiction reference. One of the issues is explicitly an Alien send-up.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 8th 2020 at 5:36:55 AM

MedusaStone Since: Jan, 2015
#119943: Aug 8th 2020 at 5:48:15 PM

So, a couple days ago I saw someone on twitter say something about Kamala Khan being confirmed in the MCU. Anybody know what that's about?

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#119944: Aug 8th 2020 at 5:51:07 PM

Uhhh Kamala Khan getting a Disney+ series was confirmed over a year ago.

BOOXMOWO Since: Mar, 2013
#119945: Aug 8th 2020 at 5:51:20 PM

Yeah, she's getting a Disney+ show. It was announced about a year ago, same time when Moon Knight and She-Hulk were announced.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#119946: Aug 9th 2020 at 12:37:26 AM

It depends, some comics can totally stain a chararter for ages to come, dr light was being pretty much know as dr rape since that comic came out.

Also while sally said was stupid, the point was that cap was growing part for the same american public he swear to protect, and considering how civil war become more "superhero fight for their comic given right to do was they want" as it always happen when this sugest is broght upon, is not surprising it happen as it did.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#119947: Aug 9th 2020 at 12:41:01 AM

If Sally's point is that Cap is growing apart of the American people because hes not watching Nascar or using Facebook, then I fucking applaud him for divorcing himself from such an awful society.

It takes a lot of moral character to defend something so inherently worthless & without any shred of value. tongue

Edited by slimcoder on Aug 9th 2020 at 12:41:49 PM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#119948: Aug 9th 2020 at 12:55:37 AM

[up]While the point is was wrote badly as it obvious, sally wasnt the one who decide everyone else have to shove be because he feel like it.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#119949: Aug 9th 2020 at 2:32:25 AM

People focus on the "do you know what NASCAR is" bit and ignore the rest of Sally's speech.

And really, you don't need to read sexism into anything. Sally Floyd is hated because she is annoying, not because she is a woman.

I don't know about that. Jameson has a much more irrational and petty hatred of superheroes than Sally does and has done far more heinous things because of that hatred. Sally at least isn't responsible for the creation of two super villains.

Edited by windleopard on Aug 9th 2020 at 2:34:10 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#119950: Aug 9th 2020 at 2:43:57 AM

See, reading that makes me think that the writer just straight-up forgot about the whole "Steven Rogers was frozen in ice since World War 2 until relatively recently" thing. Like, she's asking him those sort of questions with the intention of portraying him as out-of-touch on his high-and-mighty throne of superherodom, but it feels more like she's bullying a man who was in a coma for years for not catching up with the times.

It feels like the writer intended her speech to be "putting it to The Man who doesn't understand the common folk", but it comes across more like a very mean-spirited "shut up, Boomer".


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