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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
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And like I said, Batman's first appearance had him as a gun-toting killer.
There are obvious, stand-out OOC moments (like most heroes in events) and there is Characterization Marches On.
Sally Floyd falls into the latter category in my opinon.
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% ScandinavianThe extent to which Prototype Bat-Man is relevant to the characteristics of the Batman we saw not even a year or so later is typically exaggerated. Batman as we know him wasn't originally a gun-toter. The basic concept was pitched as a very different character that didn't pan out, so they quickly reimagined, re-named, and reconceived it and released the Batman we know as a new concept.
Developmentally, it's a very different process from Characterization Marches On.
But even so it - if anything - is exactly what we're talking about. If a character is written in a way that doesn't work, the smart hitting to do is to do exactly what happened to prototype Bat-Man. Move on and ignore it, and focus on what works instead.
Or more concisely, what
said.
'd.
Looking up the character, from what I've seen Sally Floyd has alternated between being portrayed as "reporter who asks the tough questions" and "Take That! to Civil War" ever since, so it doesn't look like an actual example of Characterization Marches On. It just looks like a minor character with indecisive use.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 8th 2020 at 2:41:11 AM
I mean, she could be. Nobody's stopping anyone from writing her as an asshat either. What I'm saying is that she isn't - even since, if the indecisiveness I'm seeing about her scant later appearances is true. Some writers writer has as competent, some write her as an idiot.
But more on a macro level, I'm saying that acting as if she has to be a hateable character because she was mishandled by one bad writer isn't a great way to look at comic characters.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 8th 2020 at 2:51:56 AM
Frontline came later.
And in that story she was dealing with the death of her daughter and her alcoholism, by the end of the story she started to going to AA meetings.
Edited by Cortez on Aug 8th 2020 at 7:50:24 AM
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<Has just finished bingeing Hank Pym's post Jan slapping moments and realizes how true this is>
....This is true.
Oooh. Did not consider that. In my defence, I did point out that they should fix her too. And I also admitted that I'm usually all for fixing characters with bad characterization rather than tossing them out, because if not, it would promote a very bad habit of killing off anyone the moment they have even one bad bit of writing.
Caring about being too mean to Sally is the narrative equivalent of worrying about stepping on an ant.
For all you know, there's somebody who feels the same about Carol. Like....Hell, I think there was a time where nobody thought all that much of Carol. She didn't really start trying to ascend as a character until the Post House of M era, which has culminated in her current existence as Captain Marvel, after years of being Ms. Binary Warbird Marvel.
Everybody is an ant to somebody Slim. Everybody.
Edited by HandsomeRob on Aug 8th 2020 at 4:06:15 AM
One Strip! One Strip!
To equate Carol & Sally on equal grounds is false.
Sally is a supporting even tertiary character who makes sparse appearances over the course of multiple years.
Carol has history, story-lines, complex character relationships, a whole shit-bang of things that makes her objectively more valuable than Sally who's inherently replaceable.
Edited by slimcoder on Aug 8th 2020 at 3:08:20 AM
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."I mean, what's being equated here isn't the characters' history, but the way the fans are looking at them.
There are absolutely people who the same thing with Carol. Same as every character who was put into a crappy but famous comic that played them out of character. "It doesn't matter if it's a famous character" just kind of deflects from it, especially since people still do it all the time.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 8th 2020 at 3:11:23 AM
I mean, if there's a difference, it's that Carol has probably had some good stories that are pretty well known.
I don't think Sally has had that at all. She has more of an uphill battle. But then again, Hank's had great stories, but eventually, it was all wife beating, all the time with him. He's dead now, after the whole Ultron merger thing, and I don't think he went out well.
The fact is any character can be elevated by someone caring enough to try, while any character can be tossed under all the buses through a combination of not doing the research from a writer and Eight Deadly Words from a fan.
Edited by HandsomeRob on Aug 8th 2020 at 5:17:11 AM
One Strip! One Strip!What are some of Carol good and well known stories? The ones I'm familiar with are rather infamous.
IIRC her 2016 run is pretty well received. I only have a volume of it so far, but I think it's pretty rad.
One thing it has that I hope the sequels put in is sprawling space opera-esque scenes of Carol fighting alongside squadrons of space fighters.
Though there's lot of science fiction reference. One of the issues is explicitly an Alien send-up.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 8th 2020 at 5:36:55 AM
It depends, some comics can totally stain a chararter for ages to come, dr light was being pretty much know as dr rape since that comic came out.
Also while sally said was stupid, the point was that cap was growing part for the same american public he swear to protect, and considering how civil war become more "superhero fight for their comic given right to do was they want" as it always happen when this sugest is broght upon, is not surprising it happen as it did.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"If Sally's point is that Cap is growing apart of the American people because hes not watching Nascar or using Facebook, then I fucking applaud him for divorcing himself from such an awful society.
It takes a lot of moral character to defend something so inherently worthless & without any shred of value.
Edited by slimcoder on Aug 9th 2020 at 12:41:49 PM
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."People focus on the "do you know what NASCAR is" bit and ignore the rest
of Sally's speech.
I don't know about that. Jameson has a much more irrational and petty hatred of superheroes than Sally does and has done far more heinous things because of that hatred. Sally at least isn't responsible for the creation of two super villains.
Edited by windleopard on Aug 9th 2020 at 2:34:10 AM
See, reading that makes me think that the writer just straight-up forgot about the whole "Steven Rogers was frozen in ice since World War 2 until relatively recently" thing. Like, she's asking him those sort of questions with the intention of portraying him as out-of-touch on his high-and-mighty throne of superherodom, but it feels more like she's bullying a man who was in a coma for years for not catching up with the times.
It feels like the writer intended her speech to be "putting it to The Man who doesn't understand the common folk", but it comes across more like a very mean-spirited "shut up, Boomer".

Well, that certainly is a list without dates or context.