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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#119901: Aug 8th 2020 at 9:56:54 AM

The suitcase was clearly emptied Watson

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#119902: Aug 8th 2020 at 10:40:38 AM

By their own admission, Marvel knew that the pro-reg side was the most reasonable premise from a real world standpoint so they had to give them a bunch of puppy kicking moments to make it look like the anti-reg side had anything remotely resembling a decent leg to stand on.

Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#119903: Aug 8th 2020 at 10:48:11 AM

But this isn't the real world and quite frankly the Marvel government seems to try and outsuck the real deal at times. Not exactly people you can trust with any kind of power, let alone the superpowered community.

Let's remember Secretary Red Skull and the average Sentinel incident.

Edited by Blueace on Aug 8th 2020 at 1:50:25 PM

Wake me up at your own risk.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#119904: Aug 8th 2020 at 10:51:35 AM

There’s also pardoning Norman fucking Osborn & giving him a major government position.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#119905: Aug 8th 2020 at 10:51:44 AM

It's not like the superheroes have a flawless track record either. Remember that the catalyst for Civil War was a bunch of superheroes getting themselves and more than 600 people killed while chasing ratings for their reality t.v. show.

Hell, the first encounter between a superhero and the Marvel populace was him trying to flood New York and Norman used the fact that superheroes frequently got second chances after all the crap they pulled to win over the public.

Edited by windleopard on Aug 8th 2020 at 10:54:31 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#119906: Aug 8th 2020 at 11:02:06 AM

Something that helped the Civil War movie is that it isn't about the Registration Act. It's not about Cap fighting for superheroes to do what they want and Iron Man fighting for heroes to be controlled.

The Registration Act is there, and is the primary thing spurring the antagonistic parts of the movie, but it's just the obstacle that makes Cap's conflict so difficult. Civil War is instead an "agent goes rogue / Clear My Name" movie: with the conflict being that something happens that Cap can't ignore just as something else happens that would make it illegal for him to do something about it. The movie is ultimately about figuring out who's framing Bucky, while the Avengers close in.

As a result, the contention between the hero sides changes from "hypocritical freedom fighters vs superhero fascists" to "Cowboy Cop vs Sympathetic Inspector Antagonist" with Tony playing the part of the Inspector, and so every character comes of leagues better than they did in the original comic.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 8th 2020 at 11:07:46 AM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#119907: Aug 8th 2020 at 11:02:52 AM

Namor isn’t really a hero

He fights worse people than him sometimes but that’s the best you can say about him. Sometimes he punches people who deserves it

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#119908: Aug 8th 2020 at 11:04:59 AM

[up][up]I've often wanted an AU where the heroes get fed up with all the bitching and just sit out the next big catastrophe to teach these people a lesson.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#119909: Aug 8th 2020 at 11:10:13 AM

Most of the heroes live on the same planet as the civilians and are affected by it as well, so they'd have to step in eventually. Not to mention a lot of these catastrophes are specifically about targeting the heroes.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#119910: Aug 8th 2020 at 11:18:23 AM

They can go spend a few days somewhere in space. I'm sure Sally Floyd can handle things on Earth.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#119911: Aug 8th 2020 at 11:24:06 AM

Her stupid ass getting arrested by Hydra Cap was another highlight of that shitty event.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#119912: Aug 8th 2020 at 1:00:29 PM

She got arrested by Hydra Cap?

Cool. Hope they never found her and she's still locked up! Man was she a mistake.

And this is me, the guy who usually says that any character can be useful if they put in the right effort.

If she's dead, she's dead. If she's alive, Marvel better either forget her or fix her.

One Strip! One Strip!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#119913: Aug 8th 2020 at 1:37:52 PM

I wouldn’t object to superheroes decide to ignore the ungrateful citizenry as a comedic one shot

“Come X-Men, we must protect the world that hates and fears and actively tries to kill us!”

“Why?”

“.... come X-Men! Let’s go to the beach!”

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#119914: Aug 8th 2020 at 1:56:14 PM

Hope they never found her and she's still locked up! Man was she a mistake.

She wasn't, Front Line wasn't her first appearance.

And blaming characters because of how she was written in was book is seems silly to me. It also seems to happen a lot with female characters.

As for civilians and how they treat powered individuals,The average citizen in these settings don't know what we the reader/viewers know. Fourth Wall Myopia an all that.

I've often wanted an AU where the heroes get fed up with all the bitching and just sit out the next big catastrophe to teach these people a lesson.

But then they wouldn't be heroes.

Edited by Cortez on Aug 8th 2020 at 6:52:58 AM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#119915: Aug 8th 2020 at 2:07:46 PM

That's kinda dumb, off course we blame characters for how they are written, a fictional character cannot think for itself.

And whether or not it was her first appearance or not, it is pretty much how her character has been established by now.

Batman also didn't start as somebody who doesn't kill, quite the contrary, yet it is pretty much an integral part of the character nowadays.

And really, you don't need to read sexism into anything. Sally Floyd is hated because she is annoying, not because she is a woman.

Edited by Forenperser on Aug 8th 2020 at 11:08:20 AM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#119916: Aug 8th 2020 at 2:10:46 PM

That's like saying 'The Punisher is justified in killing people because Wolverine does it too.'

Though at least Wolverine spares bad guys.

Frank will even kill harmless villains like Stilt-Man.

a fictional character cannot think for itself.

My point exactly.

Edited by Cortez on Aug 8th 2020 at 5:12:22 AM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#119917: Aug 8th 2020 at 2:14:33 PM

But my point was that by that logic, we can't criticize pretty much any character.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#119918: Aug 8th 2020 at 2:15:55 PM

I mean Sally Floyd is a nobody still.

It’s like not with say Captain Marvel or Dagger, their somebodies so of course you’d defend them. Sally on the other hand is such a small time piece of shit that her life is worth less than the smallest termite.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#119919: Aug 8th 2020 at 2:17:24 PM

I wouldn’t object to superheroes decide to ignore the ungrateful citizenry as a comedic one shot

“Come X-Men, we must protect the world that hates and fears and actively tries to kill us!”

“Why?”

“.... come X-Men! Let’s go to the beach!”

Bingo.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#119920: Aug 8th 2020 at 2:17:36 PM

Also, while Fourth Wall Myopia is a thing, it does not excuse Sally's dumbass "interview" with Cap at all.

Oh sure, you have no right to call yourself a hero of the people because you don't watch American Idol or know what Myspace is.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#119921: Aug 8th 2020 at 2:19:40 PM

What Cortez is saying is that going "this character was an awful mistake" because one bad writer wrote them badly in one bad appearance isn't a smart way to approach a character in a perpetual series, and that remains so even (if not especially) from a critical point of view.

Blaming the characters for the writing always leads to trouble.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 8th 2020 at 2:23:43 AM

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#119922: Aug 8th 2020 at 2:21:35 PM

[up]×4

Except Carol got overblown hate because of how she was written in certain events too.

[up]

Exactly!

Edited by Cortez on Aug 8th 2020 at 5:22:19 AM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#119923: Aug 8th 2020 at 2:23:29 PM

And with Carol it works, as she has plenty of appereances outside of events, but what meaningful and consistent appearance does Sally have that make her character starting with Frontlines such a massive contradiction?

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#119924: Aug 8th 2020 at 2:25:16 PM

You're asking for an answer somewhat different than the point actually being made here.

But to humor it for a second, it's worth noting that her having few appearances since speaks more to our point than to your, because it makes that one bit of writing more obviously an outlier in comparison to the rest of the character's history.

"X writer botched this character so badly that people are hesitant to approach her in a way they weren't before" is always going to be a fact that speaks more about the writer than it does about the character being written.

It'd be like if, immediately after Batman & Robin came out, I decided that Bane was a trash character because of the way he was written there. Which film executives did do (WB in fact has a very bad, very visible habit of adopting this mentality) hence his being absent from adaptations for a long time since.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 8th 2020 at 2:28:12 AM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#119925: Aug 8th 2020 at 2:27:31 PM

These are all of her apperances.

There isn't really much to go with, and the Civil War characterization is the most consistent one, so I don't see the problem.

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