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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#119751: Aug 6th 2020 at 8:04:43 PM

Lets be fair.

Tony mocked Stane and Hammer a lot

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#119753: Aug 6th 2020 at 8:11:28 PM

Part of what makes Killmonger unique is his context. Tragic extremist villains aren't too uncommon, but it's relatively rare to see one treated with such weight as Killmonger that has his points addressed as much. The villains of the aforementioned Luke Cage (except Diamondback) had a similar deal going for them. Cottonmouth and Mariah are a lot more impactful when you have Luke Cage's own black experience to bounce off from and deal with.

X-Men for example had Magneto, but pretty much every movie of the series had him be sympathetic but ultimately still very much misguided. Part of the punch of Killmonger is that the movie very much engages and acknowledges that Killmonger is correct to an extent and T'challa has to change to account for that. See the famous scene T'challa confronts his ancestors in the spirital plane and tearfully tears them down saying they were all wrong after being confronted with the tragedy of Killmonger.

Thanos and Zemo are both, in fact, kind of riffs on the same archetype of "tragic extremists" but both are shown as pretty much thoroughly misguided (with reason, of course).

Edited by Gaon on Aug 6th 2020 at 8:12:15 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#119754: Aug 6th 2020 at 8:11:30 PM

Didn’t Stane & Tony get along for the most part before the former tried to assassinate the latter?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#119755: Aug 6th 2020 at 8:12:14 PM

[up][up][up][up][up] Black Panther came out after Homecoming, after The Vulture.

Maybe it just speaks to my inherent biases (due to my race or class or what have you), but I found Vulture a lot more sympathetic than Killmonger. Not so much because of their backstories, but because of how they act during their respective films.

Edited by GNinja on Aug 6th 2020 at 3:14:44 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#119756: Aug 6th 2020 at 8:12:25 PM

Yeah but Tony mocks people he gets along with. Because people he gets along with are a subset of 'everyone'

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Altris from the Vortex Since: Aug, 2019 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#119757: Aug 6th 2020 at 8:13:28 PM

I don't think Tony mocked Stane, per se. It's more like the trophy scene, where Stane has to accept the trophy in Tony's place because Tony's too busy gambling, and in his villain monologue at the end he says that he had to carry Tony for thirty years or something in that vein.

So, let's hang an anchor from the sun... also my Tumblr
Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#119758: Aug 6th 2020 at 8:15:58 PM

As much as Tony is one hell of an inventor, Pepper, Stane and everyone else has to do the actual CEO stuff and damage control while he goes around getting drunk and acting like a complete buffoon and getting the glory.

Wake me up at your own risk.
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#119759: Aug 6th 2020 at 8:17:39 PM

@Gninja: Well I won't fault your opinion, but if you want my honest opinion I would honestly say that it is due your own biases (I have a hard time sympathizing more with a guy who's mad he lost his job than with a orphan who basically saw his father die in front of his eyes).

I like Vulture a lot, but his points are much more basic working class rage platitudes about "the bottom guys" and "the 1%" without much context aside from that while Killmonger is tackling race consciousness in America, systematic racism and interventionism. Homecoming doesn't even particularly engage with Vulture's points (probably because it'd mean demonizing surrogate dad Stark) the way BP does with Killmonger. It'd have if it had a scene of Pete confronting Tony and angrily telling him that his corporativism is siphoning life from the working class and driving them to villainy, the same class Tony seeks to protect. Peter never does, because Vulture's points are also shallower.

Edited by Gaon on Aug 6th 2020 at 8:18:24 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#119760: Aug 6th 2020 at 8:25:22 PM

[up] Well, as I said, I know I'm the one in the wrong here. It's why I'm sad I DON'T like Killmonger more.

It's like, I'm reading everyone's comments about the themes of the movie, and the story engaging with his points, and the tragic, relatable backstory, and I agree with all of it... but I just don't like the actual character at the center of it all, and because of that, it doesn't tie together as well as it should. I hate that I can't word myself right about this. I feel stupid because I know I sound ultra shallow.

Edited by GNinja on Aug 6th 2020 at 3:29:41 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#119761: Aug 6th 2020 at 8:27:28 PM

For me what elevates Killmonger is not just that he's sympathetic, but that the story gives actual consideration and change from the main character from the issues he presents. Plenty of other times when there's sympathetic villains, their issues are quickly brushed off and ignored so that the story can get back to punching them remorselessly. A prime example of this is Vanko, who raises a seemingly legitimate concern of how Howard Stark ruined his life... and then Nick Fury shows up to assure Tony that Howard did nothing wrong and then Tony's arc for the rest of the film concerns a different poisoning plot that has nothing to do with Vanko. By contrast, Killmonger's backstory forces T'challa to really grapple with what direction he should take Wakanda in and what he's been profitting from all his life, leading to an ending where he breaks the status quo. That I think is what makes a good villain, not just someone fleshed out, but someone who really challenges the hero to reconsider what they value.

There's a little bit of this with Vulture too as his distrust of Tony seems to weigh in Peter's decision to back off from joining Stark at the end but then the next movies quickly undid that. tongue

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Aug 6th 2020 at 8:31:32 AM

Altris from the Vortex Since: Aug, 2019 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#119762: Aug 6th 2020 at 8:40:18 PM

Yeah, Vanko really got shafted in the development department. It's a shame because the "your father took all the credit for the thing we worked on together" bit could have combined with Tony's own issues with his father (and also made a great counterpoint to the first film where Tony tells off the Vanity Fair reporter for calling his dad a war profiteer because "he fought Nazis") to make a plot point by peeling away the mystique and revealing Howard Stark as a flawed, but ultimately good man, possibly also creating a parallel to who Tony becomes in the later films. (And also created a contrast between Tony and Vanko, because Vanko is so bitter about what Howard did that he can't look past that, while Tony accepts that his father was flawed, but has the perspective to realize that Howard was ultimately a good man.

So, let's hang an anchor from the sun... also my Tumblr
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#119763: Aug 6th 2020 at 8:44:04 PM

I'm not sure if Killmonger the character raises good points. It's the fact that Killmonger exists at all that does that. The base fact that he happened in the first place speaks to a massive systemic failure on the part of Wakanda and that's what T'challa engages with.

That might be part of my problem. Killmonger is ontologically interesting. His existence alone speaks volumes. But I don't find anything he himself does or says particularly interesting. He feels like a walking theme or symbol more than a character

Edited by GNinja on Aug 6th 2020 at 3:48:00 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#119764: Aug 6th 2020 at 8:48:21 PM

What he says definitely matters. His issue when taken to the Wakandan high council wasn't "why did you abandon a royal", it's "why did Wakanda just sit by while slavery and racism and so on happened". He wasn't just going to take the throne then continue doing the same things.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Aug 6th 2020 at 8:49:10 AM

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#119765: Aug 6th 2020 at 8:55:32 PM

There are three slots of bad guys you can slot any of the MCU baddies into:

  • Regular humans that got screwed over by Tony Stark in some way and want disproportionate revenge
  • Humans that want to take control of the world with their powers and/or technology
  • Aliens that want to destroy everything

The legend has returned.
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#119766: Aug 6th 2020 at 8:58:56 PM

Wonder how Norman Osborn or Dr. Doom are going to fit in that?

Like people keep forgetting that Doom can genuinely back up his boasts, and that he really is one of the smartest men in the marvel verse.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#119767: Aug 6th 2020 at 9:01:29 PM

If Doom & Mr. Fantastic are finally brought onboard, I hope the next Endgame mega finale is an adaptation of Secret War so they can have their ultimate battle at the end of the universe where Doom finally admits once & for all that Reed was always smarter than him.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#119768: Aug 6th 2020 at 9:03:05 PM

[up] But Doom is more popular than RICHARDS!!!!!!!!

So that's a victory for Victor.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#119769: Aug 6th 2020 at 9:05:53 PM

Not like Victor cares for that.

The ultimate admitance of his inferiority is his complete & truest defeat in every sense of the world.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#119770: Aug 6th 2020 at 9:06:03 PM

I want the MCU to deliver a miracle: making Reed likable.

The legend has returned.
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#119771: Aug 6th 2020 at 9:08:17 PM

[up] Sadly, it may be impossible with the whole Civil war 1 fiasco and Reed's general attitude and backstory in the comics.

Maybe Office Max can help.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Aug 6th 2020 at 9:09:53 AM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#119772: Aug 6th 2020 at 9:09:23 PM

What does that have to do with making him likable in the movies?

Plus Tony did tons of horrible shit in Civil War but he went right back to beloved after his 1st movie.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#119773: Aug 6th 2020 at 9:09:39 PM

I'm just saying, Iron Man, Hank Pym, and Professor X did unforgivable shit in the comics as well, and yet they have beloved movie portrayals.

The legend has returned.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#119774: Aug 6th 2020 at 9:09:47 PM

Tony's true super power is driving people to murderous rage.

I'll once again point out there was an entire comic story arc revolving around this. Though I also pointed out that a lot of them had really stupid and petty motivations - certainly nothing remotely proportionate with becoming bonafide supervillains.

Besides that one guy who blamed Tony for failing to stop the guy's own drunken murderous rampage that killed his family, there was Pepper's fiance, who hated Tony because Pepper keeps being involved in Tony's drama and figured becoming part of a supervillain team out to kill Tony was a good idea.

Edited by M84 on Aug 7th 2020 at 12:13:21 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#119775: Aug 6th 2020 at 9:11:21 PM

@Tucker I guess that's the issue I just can't get past. None of his pontificating about racism or oppression felt genuine to me. It all sounded like excuses to make his revenge quest seem more righteous. We never see him do anything to help the people he claims to care about. Even when he talks about giving Vibranium weapons away to arm the oppressed, he focuses more on killing everyone in power, including their children and all of their friends.

He's so laser-focused on annihilation that his points don't sound earnest when he says them.

Edited by GNinja on Aug 6th 2020 at 4:12:21 PM

Kaze ni Nare!

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