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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#119726: Aug 6th 2020 at 4:02:03 PM

[up][up][up][up][up] That second paragraph is pretty much exactly what I think of him. I just didn't believe that HE believed in the idealistic things he was saying.

I didn't even buy into his plan to expose Wakanda and then use their resources on the rest of Africa. During the scene that explains what Killmonger's credentials are, it's mentioned that he's been trained to infiltrate areas and tear them apart from within. That's all it felt like he was doing in Wakanda. He was ripping it apart just like he'd been trained to do, he was just using his unique advantage of having a legit claim to the throne to do it.

He was a hurt kid and he wanted Wakanda to get fucked.

Edited by GNinja on Aug 6th 2020 at 11:03:10 AM

Kaze ni Nare!
Altris from the Vortex Since: Aug, 2019 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#119727: Aug 6th 2020 at 4:17:30 PM

I just watched Iron Man and Iron Man 2 back-to-back, and these movies have the collective dishonor of being the first films to have negative physical effects on my person. I still have a headache from the blaring rock music, even when I turned the sound down, and the first movie made me throw up in my mouth during the electromagnet-removal scene. I'll write more later after my headache's gone, but one criticism I have of both movies is that they really hit you over the head with who the villain is and make you extrapolate most of their motivations, especially with the second film.

So, let's hang an anchor from the sun... also my Tumblr
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#119728: Aug 6th 2020 at 4:27:06 PM

If you dislike the first two Iron Man movies for beating you over the head with who the villain's supposed to be, you're definitely not going to like Iron Man 3.

The legend has returned.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#119729: Aug 6th 2020 at 4:34:33 PM

I got the impression that Killmonger was using those techniques to take over Wakanda, but he genuinely believed in turning Wakanda into a ruling superpower over the rest of the world. He didn't want to destroy Wakanda, he wanted to rule it, unchallenged.

MileRun Since: Jan, 2001
#119730: Aug 6th 2020 at 4:44:22 PM

I still have a headache from the blaring rock music, even when I turned the sound down

Can you normally stomach rock? I don't recall the music in those movies being notable at all, positively or negatively.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#119731: Aug 6th 2020 at 4:46:20 PM

Killmonger's shtick is something put into words by legendary theorist Paulo Freire: "When the oppressed dreams of becoming the oppressor, education has failed". He internalized his oppression so profoundly he can do nothing but repeat it, even when trying avenge it. So he takes over Wakanda using CIA tactics and his dreamworld is literally inspired by the British Empire ("The sun will never set in the Wakandan empire").

As it's been pointed out, Killmonger's final words about wanting to be thrown in the sea because his ancestors knew death was better than bondage is a nice illustration of it: He can only really see African history defined by slavery (either subject to it or in opposition to it) rather than framing the paradigm from a different angle.

I definitely don't think he's insincere.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#119732: Aug 6th 2020 at 5:05:36 PM

As it's been pointed out, Killmonger's final words about wanting to be thrown in the sea because his ancestors knew death was better than bondage is a nice illustration of it: He can only really see African history defined by slavery (either subject to it or in opposition to it) rather than framing the paradigm from a different angle.

This is an important thing about Killmonger's last words that a lot of people miss. He's not supposed to be taken as making his death poignant, it's meant to be another moment that reinforces that he's incapable of perceiving the world in any way beyond the pain of the past. His conversation with his father has the same impression.

In any case, a thing I noticed after Killmonger is that the character is written from a very black perspective of villainy, and it's maybe non-black audiences' first very high profile exposure to the idea. In inner city environments, and a lot movies and books written with that perspective, you may encounter a strong idea that every monster is a tragedy: every person who becomes a psycho gang-banger was once a kid who deserved to grow up as a better person, but was let down by their parents, by the government, and by the world and so instead incubated into something awful that now has to be opposed for the good the community. A lot of black stories are about saving kids headed down that path from the things in the world that are pushing them down that way (including people who are already perceived as being too far gone), etc.

Killmonger's backstory feeds directly into that idea though. He's a kid who literally could have been a Prince, but lost his father and had to grow up in the system, and grew up with no nobility or capacity to do anything but perpetuate hatred. It's very on the nose if you know the perspective it's coming from. But it runs counter to the general American perception of criminals as undesirables who ought to be written off, so you got a lot of knee jerk "they're saying Killmonger is right / a Woobie / etc" reactions even though that's absolutely not what's going on.

I remember when the movie came out there was a small rush of "I knew a Killmonger" posts online from black audiences. It's one of those things that black viewers would more readily recognize, like how people in the general audience accused Mariah Dillard in Luke Cage as coming off as Marvel saying "opposing gentrification is evil" until inner city audiences set them straight about what sh was actually supposed to represent.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 6th 2020 at 5:20:33 AM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#119733: Aug 6th 2020 at 5:13:27 PM

This is an important thing about Killmonger's last words that a lot of people miss. He's not supposed to be taken as making his death poignant, it's meant to be another moment that reinforces that he's incapable of perceiving the world in any way beyond the pain of the past. His conversation with his father has the same impression.

Bree Newsome had a response to his last words that I think illustrates how his perspective was limited.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Aug 6th 2020 at 5:15:14 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#119734: Aug 6th 2020 at 5:18:04 PM

My sister was an activist in her youth, and Killmonger's last words - specifically how well he represents a person who can't see worth in themselves or their potential - brought her to tears.

Altris from the Vortex Since: Aug, 2019 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#119735: Aug 6th 2020 at 5:19:33 PM

[up][up][up][up][up][up] Yeah, I watched the third movie completely devoid of context a while back, and it was ...less than subtle about who the villain was. Now that I have context for that, it surprises me that it manages to be less subtle than "has beef with dealing with Tony for 30 years and gets a shot of being on the couch surrounded by expensive things" Obadiah" and "also has beef with Tony and gets multiple shots of him looking at Tony's success enviously" Hammer. On the positive side, I think I understand why Ultron talks about people creating the things that destroy them.

[up][up][up][up] I can handle rock just fine, it's just a bit too incomprehensible/loud for my taste, so I don't listen to it normally. In retrospect, perhaps watching the movies back-to-back was not a good idea and I shouldn’t be complaining about it.

Edited by Altris on Aug 6th 2020 at 5:20:10 AM

So, let's hang an anchor from the sun... also my Tumblr
AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#119736: Aug 6th 2020 at 5:40:19 PM

Killmonger does happen to raise good points that even manage to stick with T'Challa and influence his decisions as king. It's just a shame said points are really just an excuse/disguise for the walking mess of pettiness, bloodlust and desire for revenge that he was made into from youth. Still doesn't stop me from feeling bad for him because he was clearly fucked over from youth plus his trip to the ancestral plane is still genuinely heartbreaking to watch.

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#119737: Aug 6th 2020 at 6:05:55 PM

Hell, even the fact that he's so messed up played a part in T'challa's decisions. It's clear that his decision to buy that place where Eric grew up was the first part of his no more Killmongers plan.

One Strip! One Strip!
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#119738: Aug 6th 2020 at 6:11:03 PM

Killmonger and Nakia are foils, so that Killmonger is able to turn T'Challa around on Nakia's views by providing a more extreme version of what would happen if he did not listen to Nakia's advice.

TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#119739: Aug 6th 2020 at 6:25:10 PM

Hey guys

Could Goku beat up Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet?

-runs-

If Goku...

  • initiates Super Saiyan Blue (aka Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, if you want to be technical)
  • fuses with Vegeta to be Vegito or Gogeta and from there initiates Super Saiyan Blue
  • or activates Ultra Instinct?

Sure.

Thanos would probably outsmart him more than a few times, but all Goku really needs to focus his energy on is the Infinity Gauntlet. Without the Gauntlet, Thanos would probably be on the same physical level as Jiren minus the ability to use energy attacks or flying.

Or alternatively, Goku can convince Beerus to use his Hakai technique on Thanos and literally obliterate him.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#119740: Aug 6th 2020 at 6:28:45 PM

In one comics crossover event, Darkseid got the Infinity Gauntlet...and immediately tossed it away because it's totally powerless in the DC universe.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#119741: Aug 6th 2020 at 6:28:57 PM

And if Thanos snaps his fingers, Goku never existed. So, you know... Reality Warper wins that match unless the opponent gets off a decisive first strike.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#119742: Aug 6th 2020 at 6:29:38 PM

What would be a more interesting question is if the Infinity Gauntlet is more powerful than Zeno.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#119743: Aug 6th 2020 at 6:32:35 PM

Zeno can kill an omnipresent being with ease. The Infinity Gauntlet, at least the MCU version, definitely can't do that shit.

The legend has returned.
jouXIII The One Who Knows Many Things from Between the Multiverses (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
The One Who Knows Many Things
#119744: Aug 6th 2020 at 6:34:29 PM

Well, I see comic!Gauntlet being with similar level as Omniking. MCU!Gauntlet, I'm not quite sure...

I assure you, I'm perfectly trustable person
MileRun Since: Jan, 2001
#119745: Aug 6th 2020 at 6:37:37 PM

All versions of the gauntlet, as far as I'm aware, only work within the boundaries of that gauntlet's universe, whereas Zeno can just squish whatever universes it sees fit. That said, I don't think Zeno has ever demonstrated powers of creation or resistance to destruction on-screen, so it's up in the air whether or not a hypothetical infinity gauntlet in Zeno's domain could hurt Zeno.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#119746: Aug 6th 2020 at 7:29:38 PM

So Goku wins the battle by tag-teaming in his god buddy? Does Thanos need to snag Galactus or Dormammu or something? How absurd does this get? I thought most Who Would Win fights don't permit running for help.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#119747: Aug 6th 2020 at 7:50:55 PM

Not Marvel but I wonder if Manchester Black can pop Goku’s capillaries like he almost did to Superman.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#119748: Aug 6th 2020 at 7:52:03 PM

[up][up]Goku isn't relevant. My question was more about comparing the omnipotence granted by the Infinity Gauntlet to the omnipotence of the actual god-king in Dragonball.

[up]In Dragonball magic and psychic powers do seem to be something of an Achilles' Heel for chi-based fighters regardless of power. But powerful magic users seem to be even rarer than powerful chi users.

Edited by M84 on Aug 6th 2020 at 10:55:58 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#119749: Aug 6th 2020 at 7:59:34 PM

@Known Unknown

But... aren't sympathetic criminals kind of the standard in fiction nowadays? Some of the most acclaimed, highly rated tv shows around focus on the lives of flawed but sympathetic criminals.

I'm not sure how Killmonger is going against any well-established narratives. The trope of the good kid who fell to evil because the system failed them is common, I thought.

This is kinda what I mean, I know I'm the one in the wrong here, I'm clearly missing something, but everything about Killmonger feels like it's been done before, yet people consider him a breath of fresh air.

Edited by GNinja on Aug 6th 2020 at 3:05:41 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#119750: Aug 6th 2020 at 8:03:55 PM

It's not really the standard in Marvel. Generally it's "generic business dude who got mocked by Tony Stark one time" or "generic space guy who wants to destroy all stuff because".


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