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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#119526: Jul 26th 2020 at 10:37:05 AM

Jeph Loeb has always been a dickhead, but wow, that is a new low.

And yeah, I never saw Nat's death as fridging either. Or Gamora's, for that matter.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#119527: Jul 26th 2020 at 10:40:10 AM

Definitely not Gamora. Since we first saw her in GotG 1, she's been about hating her father while hanging on his approval and living in utter fear of the day he decides to kill her. Her fate was sealed the minute she turned away from him and joined Peter Quill.

We aren't supposed to see Thanos' "love" as healthy. The Soul Stone certainly doesn't care. The whole relationship is pure dysfunction and abuse, and it ends with Thanos murdering his adopted daughter. There is way too much pathos there for it to be a fridging.

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 26th 2020 at 1:41:54 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#119528: Jul 26th 2020 at 10:50:59 AM

Jeph Loeb is a damn mess.

Maybe, once upon a time you could feel pity for him for the death of his son a long time ago (which is when a lot of his writing took a nose dive), but with what was just revealed, along with what he did to the ultimate universe, I feel it's now 100% ok to have zero respect for him.

One Strip! One Strip!
VampireBuddha Calendar enthusiast from Ireland (Wise, aged troper) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Calendar enthusiast
#119529: Jul 26th 2020 at 11:11:11 AM

Everybody's human, but racists deserve things the mods won't let me say. And you'd have to be a super-alt-righter to possibly see Loeb as not racist.

Ukrainian Red Cross
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#119530: Jul 26th 2020 at 11:14:38 AM

It's disappointing given Loeb's work in one of my favorite Batman stories ever (The Long Halloween), but I guess this is only the final nail on the coffin of a long-suffering career of mistakes.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
deuteragonist Since: Dec, 2013
#119531: Jul 26th 2020 at 11:22:42 AM

[up]5x I’m in a weird place when it comes to the soul stone deaths.

I despise Natasha’s death in Endgame (quite literally ruined the movie for me) but I agree that it’s not exactly fridging. It’s problematic as hell and the cheeky girl power moment in the final battle later on makes it infinitely worse, but Natasha’s sacrifice was of her own volition. But it’s still treated horribly by the movie.

Now Gamora’s death is a different story. I absolutely think it’s fridging, as it’s used to directly develop Peter and Thanos’s characters (and Nebula’s). It also loses points for violently killing off one of the only women of color, which I really just can’t forgive. However, it’s still far more effective than Natasha’s death because it’s treated with emotional weight and tragedy, while also having stronger ripple effects for the story. I still hate it, but I don’t hate it as much because it’s in a better story overall.

Edited by deuteragonist on Jul 26th 2020 at 11:23:16 AM

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#119532: Jul 26th 2020 at 11:27:24 AM

It's weird to think of a fridging as a character development moment for the guy who does the deed.

The legend has returned.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#119533: Jul 26th 2020 at 11:34:04 AM

Jeph Loeb has been a self-destructing mass of bad decisions for years, which... yeah. It's a shame. The Long Halloween and Hush are two of my favorite Batman stories, but he never recovered from the death of his son - he just kept spiraling.

Even before this, "to hell with depth" has always been one of his problems when put in charge of television (it's why all the animated series he was put in control of either sucked or fell apart).

It escalating even further to "to hell with depth, for racist reasons" is just a sign that the guy needs to retire or something.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 26th 2020 at 11:35:43 AM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#119534: Jul 26th 2020 at 12:04:06 PM

The reason I see neither death as fridging is because it wasn't done for shock value or to specifically torment somebody.

In fact, Thanos himself was extremely heartbroken about it, he didn't rub it into anybodys face.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#119535: Jul 26th 2020 at 12:12:56 PM

Good lord to think the whole controversy about Danny’s race could have easily been resolved if it wasn’t for Loeb.

What a fucking waste.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#119536: Jul 26th 2020 at 12:34:06 PM

I'm basically in Deuteragonist and Rob's camps. I absolutely hate Natasha's death, but it's not fridging. From a narrative, in-universe standpoint they did everything they needed to in order to give her agency and meaning in her death, but I still think it's a terrible decision out-of-universe and borne out of a Doylist need for pointless drama.

People who criticize it as a fridging are Right for the Wrong Reasons - there's plenty to criticize regarding its place in the MCU's aggregate storytelling without resorting to accusing it of being the one thing it worked very hard at averting.

From a less analytical angle It doesn't help that I'm biased in Nat's camp and believe that she's always had a more compelling arc with better storytelling potential than Clint. Which is part of the problem, as if they killed Clint off he'd basically amount to a Mauve Shirt in the span of the MCU, while Natasha has the impact it does precisely because she received such good writing compared to his in previous films.

Edited by AlleyOop on Jul 26th 2020 at 3:34:40 PM

TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#119538: Jul 26th 2020 at 3:21:37 PM

Weren’t these 2 playing well-liked villains? Like wasn’t Nobu considered one of the best fights in DD season 1?

How weird.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#119539: Jul 26th 2020 at 3:24:20 PM

Racism is illogical. Loeb needs a long, long time away from... most people until he can get his damn head screwed up straight or just shouldn't be hired anymore for a long time.

Wake me up at your own risk.
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#119540: Jul 26th 2020 at 3:27:09 PM

Madame Gao is in fact the most popular antagonist of the entire The Hand group.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#119541: Jul 26th 2020 at 3:32:48 PM

Worse than that. A lot of Daredevil, Iron Fist, and subsequently The Defender's problems can be traced back to an unwillingness to properly explore the Hand and its characters in the first, the Asian themes and worldbuilding in the second, and both at once in the third.

We've been talking for years about how the Hand are shitty bad guys with no depth or personality and awkwardly tacked on motivations. Now we know why.

It's also probably why there's barely any K'un L'un besides characters vaguely talking about it in Iron Fist.

God, I can't wait for Shang Chi.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 26th 2020 at 3:33:27 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#119542: Jul 26th 2020 at 3:33:18 PM

Though she didn't become Hand until Iron Fist.

Yeesh. I guess Finn Jones is gonna get even more shit from people for being involved in this.

...unless he's racist too. I mean, no one's said anything, but...

One Strip! One Strip!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#119543: Jul 26th 2020 at 3:36:15 PM

Finn Jones is just an actor. It's not his fault that his boss' boss' boss controlling the strings is an asshole, and he was in even less of a position than the writers were to do something about it.

It's the same as the shit we went through with Perlmutter. Feige wanted to do Black Widow, and Black Panther and Captain Marvel. Perlmutter said no, because bigoted blah blah "nobody wants to watch black people / women" nonsense, and that was it. Feige's hands were tied until Perlmutter was Kicked Upstairs.

Loeb has been long a long chain of getting Kicked Upstairs after ruining things he's put his hands on as well, so hopefully this will be the straw the broke the camel's back.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 26th 2020 at 3:38:47 AM

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#119544: Jul 26th 2020 at 3:38:34 PM

Jeph Loeb really should have retired after the tragic death of his son, but Joe Quasada convinced him to work for Marvel and was put in charge of Ultimates 3.

Yeah, in hindsight, Joe Quasada really should not have hired a grieving father.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#119545: Jul 26th 2020 at 3:41:20 PM

I mean, theoretically that could have worked out. Work is the antidote to sorrow and all that. Had Loeb had a better support system, he could have gone on to heal and do greater things.

But looking back, I think Loeb has long needed way more help than either he's seeking out or people are giving him. The guy's been on a long but slow collapse.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 26th 2020 at 3:41:24 AM

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#119546: Jul 26th 2020 at 3:44:49 PM

[up] I always did assume Joe's decision was a misguided attempt to help his friend but like wow it didn't work.

Sure i love Hush and Long Halloween but i'm still sour over what he did to the Ultimate verse, well specifically the Ultimate Spider-Man corner.

And what's been revealed is just disgusting, but i'll wait for the other side of the story for now.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Jul 26th 2020 at 3:45:34 AM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#119547: Jul 26th 2020 at 3:54:29 PM

Well. This was...telling. Really stinks for the actors.

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#119548: Jul 26th 2020 at 4:04:34 PM

What did Loeb do to Ultimate Spider-Men? I only know of his effects on the Ultimates and Ultimate X-Men books.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#119549: Jul 26th 2020 at 4:22:25 PM

[up] Well Ultimate Spider-Man was affected by Ultimatum. Granted far less than the rest but you know. It helped set the chain that got Ultimate Peter killed.

Like Ultimate Peter was my favorite Spidey and a good refuge after OMD turned 616 Peter into an asshole.

Honestly i would have warmed up to Miles Morales a lot faster if he replaced 616 Peter, not the best Peter.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Jul 26th 2020 at 4:23:58 AM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Voltron64 Since: Jul, 2016
#119550: Jul 26th 2020 at 4:40:53 PM

To be honest, I think what makes Joe Quesada's decisions with Jeph Loeb even harsher is the fact that Quesada is Flipino.


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