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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
Definitely not Gamora. Since we first saw her in GotG 1, she's been about hating her father while hanging on his approval and living in utter fear of the day he decides to kill her. Her fate was sealed the minute she turned away from him and joined Peter Quill.
We aren't supposed to see Thanos' "love" as healthy. The Soul Stone certainly doesn't care. The whole relationship is pure dysfunction and abuse, and it ends with Thanos murdering his adopted daughter. There is way too much pathos there for it to be a fridging.
Edited by Fighteer on Jul 26th 2020 at 1:41:54 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Jeph Loeb is a damn mess.
Maybe, once upon a time you could feel pity for him for the death of his son a long time ago (which is when a lot of his writing took a nose dive), but with what was just revealed, along with what he did to the ultimate universe, I feel it's now 100% ok to have zero respect for him.
One Strip! One Strip!Everybody's human, but racists deserve things the mods won't let me say. And you'd have to be a super-alt-righter to possibly see Loeb as not racist.
Ukrainian Red CrossIt's disappointing given Loeb's work in one of my favorite Batman stories ever (The Long Halloween), but I guess this is only the final nail on the coffin of a long-suffering career of mistakes.
"All you Fascists bound to lose."
5x I’m in a weird place when it comes to the soul stone deaths.
I despise Natasha’s death in Endgame (quite literally ruined the movie for me) but I agree that it’s not exactly fridging. It’s problematic as hell and the cheeky girl power moment in the final battle later on makes it infinitely worse, but Natasha’s sacrifice was of her own volition. But it’s still treated horribly by the movie.
Now Gamora’s death is a different story. I absolutely think it’s fridging, as it’s used to directly develop Peter and Thanos’s characters (and Nebula’s). It also loses points for violently killing off one of the only women of color, which I really just can’t forgive. However, it’s still far more effective than Natasha’s death because it’s treated with emotional weight and tragedy, while also having stronger ripple effects for the story. I still hate it, but I don’t hate it as much because it’s in a better story overall.
Edited by deuteragonist on Jul 26th 2020 at 11:23:16 AM
Jeph Loeb has been a self-destructing mass of bad decisions for years, which... yeah. It's a shame. The Long Halloween and Hush are two of my favorite Batman stories, but he never recovered from the death of his son - he just kept spiraling.
Even before this, "to hell with depth" has always been one of his problems when put in charge of television (it's why all the animated series he was put in control of either sucked or fell apart).
It escalating even further to "to hell with depth, for racist reasons" is just a sign that the guy needs to retire or something.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 26th 2020 at 11:35:43 AM
The reason I see neither death as fridging is because it wasn't done for shock value or to specifically torment somebody.
In fact, Thanos himself was extremely heartbroken about it, he didn't rub it into anybodys face.
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% ScandinavianI'm basically in Deuteragonist and Rob's camps. I absolutely hate Natasha's death, but it's not fridging. From a narrative, in-universe standpoint they did everything they needed to in order to give her agency and meaning in her death, but I still think it's a terrible decision out-of-universe and borne out of a Doylist need for pointless drama.
People who criticize it as a fridging are Right for the Wrong Reasons - there's plenty to criticize regarding its place in the MCU's aggregate storytelling without resorting to accusing it of being the one thing it worked very hard at averting.
From a less analytical angle It doesn't help that I'm biased in Nat's camp and believe that she's always had a more compelling arc with better storytelling potential than Clint. Which is part of the problem, as if they killed Clint off he'd basically amount to a Mauve Shirt in the span of the MCU, while Natasha has the impact it does precisely because she received such good writing compared to his in previous films.
Edited by AlleyOop on Jul 26th 2020 at 3:34:40 PM
It gets worse. Nobu and Gao's actors weren't invited to Daredevil's season 2 premiere.
Jesus, Mary, Joseph...
Madame Gao is in fact the most popular antagonist of the entire The Hand group.
"All you Fascists bound to lose."Worse than that. A lot of Daredevil, Iron Fist, and subsequently The Defender's problems can be traced back to an unwillingness to properly explore the Hand and its characters in the first, the Asian themes and worldbuilding in the second, and both at once in the third.
We've been talking for years about how the Hand are shitty bad guys with no depth or personality and awkwardly tacked on motivations. Now we know why.
It's also probably why there's barely any K'un L'un besides characters vaguely talking about it in Iron Fist.
God, I can't wait for Shang Chi.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 26th 2020 at 3:33:27 AM
Though she didn't become Hand until Iron Fist.
Yeesh. I guess Finn Jones is gonna get even more shit from people for being involved in this.
...unless he's racist too. I mean, no one's said anything, but...
One Strip! One Strip!Finn Jones is just an actor. It's not his fault that his boss' boss' boss controlling the strings is an asshole, and he was in even less of a position than the writers were to do something about it.
It's the same as the shit we went through with Perlmutter. Feige wanted to do Black Widow, and Black Panther and Captain Marvel. Perlmutter said no, because bigoted blah blah "nobody wants to watch black people / women" nonsense, and that was it. Feige's hands were tied until Perlmutter was Kicked Upstairs.
Loeb has been long a long chain of getting Kicked Upstairs after ruining things he's put his hands on as well, so hopefully this will be the straw the broke the camel's back.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 26th 2020 at 3:38:47 AM
Jeph Loeb really should have retired after the tragic death of his son, but Joe Quasada convinced him to work for Marvel and was put in charge of Ultimates 3.
Yeah, in hindsight, Joe Quasada really should not have hired a grieving father.
"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"I mean, theoretically that could have worked out. Work is the antidote to sorrow and all that. Had Loeb had a better support system, he could have gone on to heal and do greater things.
But looking back, I think Loeb has long needed way more help than either he's seeking out or people are giving him. The guy's been on a long but slow collapse.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 26th 2020 at 3:41:24 AM
I always did assume Joe's decision was a misguided attempt to help his friend but like wow it didn't work.
Sure i love Hush and Long Halloween but i'm still sour over what he did to the Ultimate verse, well specifically the Ultimate Spider-Man corner.
And what's been revealed is just disgusting, but i'll wait for the other side of the story for now.
Edited by RedHunter543 on Jul 26th 2020 at 3:45:34 AM
"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Well Ultimate Spider-Man was affected by Ultimatum. Granted far less than the rest but you know. It helped set the chain that got Ultimate Peter killed.
Like Ultimate Peter was my favorite Spidey and a good refuge after OMD turned 616 Peter into an asshole.
Honestly i would have warmed up to Miles Morales a lot faster if he replaced 616 Peter, not the best Peter.
Edited by RedHunter543 on Jul 26th 2020 at 4:23:58 AM
"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"

Jeph Loeb has always been a dickhead, but wow, that is a new low.
And yeah, I never saw Nat's death as fridging either. Or Gamora's, for that matter.
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian