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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#119501: Jul 25th 2020 at 6:01:57 PM

....

Watching endgame again.

....I'm gonna say my peace. I've gone back and forth on it. I've agreed and disagreed with the assessment.

....Black Widow' death: not a fridging.

Was it something I liked? No. Do I hope that putting the stones back will invoke a reverse of a soul for a soul? Hell yes.

Do I think she was fridged? Honestly, no. She chose it. That's the key thing. She chose to die to save everyone. Yes, the other male characters suffered and experienced man pain, but that wasn't the primary goal. That was just a side thing.

Nobody decided Natasha's fate. Nobody but Natasha.

I may change my mind again on this, because it's a controversial issue. A very controversial issue, but this is where I currently stand on it. I won't fault anyone for disagreeing with me. Hell, I not only expect people to disagree with me, but to even call me full of crap, because again, Widow's death is one of the bigger black marks against a movie that's (in my opinion) near spotless, but yeah. Not a fridging.

....it was dumb though. That's I'll agree with, because the whole soul for a soul, no take backs, no loopholes ever rule is a cheap ass one, although it's theoretically a good security system from an in-universe perspective.

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#119502: Jul 25th 2020 at 6:07:23 PM

Huh I just now realized Gargan & Jonah's reveal nicely sets up Scorpion.

Scorp's classic origin is Jonah actually funding the scorpion procedure for Gargan unaware of his criminal background so he can hunt down Spider-Man which of course doesn't work out.

So they can easily do something like that for the next film.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#119503: Jul 25th 2020 at 6:08:26 PM

[up] And Mac Gargan was stalking Peter on behalf of Jameson to see how he got pictures of Spidey, which can work in the MCU with a bit of tweaking.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Jul 25th 2020 at 6:08:21 AM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#119504: Jul 25th 2020 at 6:13:18 PM

I've always been one with a relatively kind viewing of Widow's death. I understand and agree that it's a problem on a larger culture of female deaths in pop culture, my personal feelings on the matter are and have always been that to die with a head held high for a cause worth fighting for is the best fate someone can ask for. A worthy death, a beautiful death.

In the legendary words of Neil Young/The Kurgan:

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#119505: Jul 25th 2020 at 6:58:45 PM

A thing I liked about Superior Spider Man was Ock being surprised at how hard Spider Man actually punches, which says a lot for how much Peter has had to pull his punches with Ock

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
32ndfreeze Since: Mar, 2012
#119506: Jul 25th 2020 at 7:02:31 PM

I'm honestly not super invested in many of the MCU characters.

But in most other media I'm into that kind of arbitrary "someone gets sacrificed" setup would probably irritate me a lot.

MileRun Since: Jan, 2001
#119507: Jul 25th 2020 at 7:15:11 PM

The writers have talked about Nat vs. Clint's death before, and it kindmakes the whole thing feel like a lose-lose.

Interviewer: Was there a possible outcome where Clint Barton sacrifices himself instead of her?
Mc FEELY: There was, for sure. Jen Underdahl, our visual effects producer, read an outline or draft where Hawkeye goes over. And she goes, “Don’t you take this away from her.” I actually get emotional thinking about it.
MARKUS: And it was true, it was him taking the hit for her. It was melodramatic to have him die and not get his family back. And it is only right and proper that she's done.

If Clint succeeded in sacrificing himself, he would've taken agency away from Nat. Nat's success instead came with all the negative connotations we've discussed ad nauseam.

I think, between the two of them, Nat's sacrifice was the right call, but they should've given Nat some sort of presence in the final act, even if she wasn't physically/literally there.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#119508: Jul 25th 2020 at 7:17:19 PM

The Vormir sacrifice in general just didn't work for me whether it had been Black Widow's or Hawkeye's brains splattered on the ground.

It worked in Infinity War as part of Thanos's journey, showing that his conviction was so strong he'd even sacrifice his only humanizing quality— the love for his daughter —to achieve what he (deludedly) believed to be the only way to save the universe. A running theme in Infinity War is how much you're willing to sacrifice in the name of your beliefs; Gamora fails to keep the stone's location safe due to an unwillingness to sacrifice Nebula, Quill takes too long to kill Gamora in Knowhere, much of the plot is spent trying to postpone Vision's death only for Wanda to have to go through with it herself, Doctor Strange winds up surrendering the Time Stone to save Tony's life.

In Endgame it just feels like "Wait, shit, somebody has to die for them to get the Soul Stone. Uhhhh, let's draw a name out of a hat." There's no real Doylistic significance or buildup to the scene, dying has very little to do with Black Widow's character arc (or anybody but Tony's, really). It's just a random casualty of the mission.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Jul 25th 2020 at 10:18:56 AM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#119509: Jul 25th 2020 at 7:22:50 PM

That's not true, Endgame sets up early on that Natasha and Steve are both overworking and blaming themselves for the Snap and they can't move on from it. Nat sacrificing herself to get the Soul Stone made sense for her character arc because she's been spending the last 5 years working to bring everyone back and trying to make up for not being able to, and her overall character arc has been focused on her trying to make up for her evil past with heroic actions.

Clint wasn't actually focused on getting the Soul Stone, he was just looking for an excuse to kill himself and avoid having to live with and atone for his actions. He hadn't earned a heroic sacrifice the way Nat had, and he had to live in order to earn forgiveness.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Jul 25th 2020 at 7:23:37 AM

MileRun Since: Jan, 2001
#119510: Jul 25th 2020 at 7:25:25 PM

It doesn't make sense for Clint to have gotten the stone from that, either. He didn't sacrifice Nat for the stone - Nat sacrificed herself.

Nat should've woken up with the stone. It would've been a good counterpoint to Thanos murdering his daughter.

Cross (Don’t ask)
#119511: Jul 25th 2020 at 7:28:41 PM

Not sure if "earned" is the best way to describe it.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#119512: Jul 25th 2020 at 7:35:22 PM

Forgiveness from who exactly?

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#119513: Jul 25th 2020 at 8:05:57 PM

"A worthy death, a beautiful "

To quote faora: a good death is own reward.

Also nat sacrificing herself is a good contrast to thanos, who talk big about the cost but always end killings other people.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#119514: Jul 25th 2020 at 10:01:55 PM

I mean, a fridging would be Red Skull saying “Christ, this is a long conversation, I will kill one of you to motivate the other.” and then chucking her down the pit himself.

The legend has returned.
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#119515: Jul 25th 2020 at 10:07:21 PM

[up] To make it more complete then the Red Skull and Clint have a fight while Clint angsts over his loss.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#119516: Jul 25th 2020 at 10:15:22 PM

[up]Follwed by clint getting over the next scene.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#119517: Jul 25th 2020 at 10:31:27 PM

And nobody else bringing up Black Widow while Tony's death gets far more attention.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#119518: Jul 26th 2020 at 12:15:27 AM

The writers have talked about Nat vs. Clint's death before, and it kindmakes the whole thing feel like a lose-lose.

The smart thing would have been to not write the Soul Stone in Infinity War such that it requires arbitrarily killing off whoever goes there without much in the way of set-up or point beyond contriving second-act emotional pain in the first place. Vormir's one of the most transparent "kill off a character for drama" set-ups I've ever seen.

I can buy that they had no choice but to deal with it the way they did when Endgame came around, but they chose to shoehorn an unavoidable fridge-machine in the first place.

Vormir in Endgame reeks of "we have to do this, so lets just do it." It doesn't gel very well with Widow's character arc for her to just die there, it gets one small scene of reflection from the dudes on the Avengers (and like a line of dialogue later) and otherwise doesn't impact the plot at all. It doesn't even really work with Hawkeye's arc either - it requires us to forget for a moment that Hawkeye actually knows he has something worth living for at that point. And then they announced a long awaited movie for the character they killed off.

The more you think about it, the more "the writers didn't really want to bother, but they had to because they made such a big deal out of it last time" makes sense as an explanation for the whole thing.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 26th 2020 at 12:23:39 PM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#119519: Jul 26th 2020 at 12:46:22 AM

Whenever I hear "someone HAD to die for the Soul Stone" or "time travel WON'T let you change the past" or "there was only ONE possible way to beat Thanos", I think about how Nat's death scene blatantly ignores the rules of Vormir seen prior. She jumps off completely against Clint's wishes. He didn't choose to sacrifice anybody but the story treats it the same anyway just cuz. It's something I think about whenever it's insisted that some of the more contrived plot points of Infinity War/Endgame HAD to happen the way they did. Fans treat exposition like it's immutable law, writers treat it like guidelines that they will ignore the instant they think of a "cooler idea".

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#119520: Jul 26th 2020 at 6:22:54 AM

Weren’t Endgame and Infinity War written back to back?

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#119521: Jul 26th 2020 at 6:52:49 AM

Honestly, the Soul Stone thing is even worse because aside from being the kind of black-and-white, only-one-answer thing that most of these kind of movies pride themselves on finding unusual workarounds to (and while Infinity War subverted that kind of problem-solving to great effect, it feels more out of place in Endgame), the Soul Stone doesn't really... do anything.

For all the talk about it being "special" and that's why it requires a sacrifice, the Stone never really demonstrates any great or unique power to justify that kind of requirement. It's crucial because it's part of the Infinity Stones, and you can't do the snap without the full set for some reason (although for Thanos and the Avengers' purposes it's one of the more crucial ones, especially with the Gauntlet toned down in capabilities, but the narrative never points that out). They even teased something cool with Thanos' vision of Gamora in the Soul Stone implying that whoever was sacrificed would linger inside it. That's good stuff that they proceed to do absolutely nothing with (aside from that scene of course) EITHER time someone sacrifices themselves to get the stupid thing.

Edited by Khfan429 on Jul 26th 2020 at 6:55:59 AM

TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#119522: Jul 26th 2020 at 8:59:05 AM

RE: Clint dying over Nat in Endgame: As bad as Nat's death was, Clint's probably would've been worse. He lost his family for five years, but they would've lost him forever.

Also, Peter Shinkoda, who played Nobu in the Daredevil series paints a really awful picture about the show's producer Jeph Loeb.

Loeb explicitly told the writers not to write anything for Nobu or Madame Gao, claiming that no one cares about Chinese and Asian people.

On a related note, Daredevil showrunner Doug Petrie pitched a version of Iron Fist that would've had a Danny who was Asian-American/Mixed race that Loeb also put the kibosh on.

Suddenly, Feige not wanting to add stuff from the Marvel TV shows into the MCU is looking a LOT more justifiable. And it's an even bigger miracle that we're getting the Shang-Chi movie at all. And I'm more convinced that we should steel ourselves for a rebooted Daredevil and Kingpin if/when they appear in the movies.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#119524: Jul 26th 2020 at 9:21:17 AM

"Nobody cares about Chinese people or Asian people. There were three previous Marvel movies, a trilogy called Blade made where Wesley Snipes kills 200 Asians each movie. Nobody gives a shit. So don't write about Nobu or Gao."

Fucking wow. This really explains a lot of the more questionable depictions in the Netflix shows.

I feel really bad for the actors here. You know they wanted to explore these characters more and flesh them out beyond typical Yellow Peril baddies, but nope! Thank god Loeb's not going to be in charge of the TV department anymore.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#119525: Jul 26th 2020 at 10:08:08 AM

This feels like a scabbed wound that people can't keep picking at, but Nat's death in Endgame is not "out of nowhere" and it is completely consistent with her character arc. Clint has something to live for: a family. His arc is all about reclaiming that. For him to die and Nat to live would add a completely unnecessary layer of tragedy.

Nat's characterization throughout the series is as someone who feels that she deserves death but still fights on to, in some way, atone for the things she's done. After the Snap, when everyone else is out working or living their lives, she's still at Avengers HQ, holding the fort, playing Mission Control. Her connections with the rest of the team are important, but each of them has something external to that relationship to live for.

Given that setup and the fact that she's one of the O.G. Avengers known to be departing the film series, her arc could have ended in one of two ways: she finds something (or rather, someone) worth living for and satisfies her quest for redemption; or she dies. As soon as Vormir comes into the picture, it is pretty much a foregone conclusion. Infinity War set up the "soul for a soul" challenge, and Nat's been a Death Seeker since her first appearance, so the foreshadowing lies thick like molasses on the floor.

None of this meets the criteria for a Fridging, and let me point out that if Nat had found love and settled down with a man in domestic bliss, the writers would be accused of sexism for that too. There was some chance she'd be paired off with Bruce, but that ended when he turned into Professor Hulk (the potential for Hot Skitty-on-Wailord Action notwithstanding).

Summed up: Nat is the only main Avenger who, by Endgame, has not found their place in some way (you could make a case for Steve, but that gets settled by the end as well). Pair that with the Tonight, Someone Dies aspect of the film, and it makes perfect narrative sense.

I'm not going to dwell on Vormir being a setup for killing off characters. Obviously it is that, but so what? Everything is a plot device of some sort. The answer to any question of "why X" is "because we wrote it that way".

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

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