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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#119476: Jul 25th 2020 at 12:39:37 PM

What if..what if Doc Oct got hold of Peter's mutated DNA and was able to get his super strength and durability?

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#119477: Jul 25th 2020 at 12:49:31 PM

You don't need to give Doc Ock any sort of complex armor or additional powers. His body should be his weak point. It's getting past the arms that poses the challenge for Spider-Man.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Jul 25th 2020 at 3:49:53 PM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
VampireBuddha Calendar enthusiast from Ireland (Wise, aged troper) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Calendar enthusiast
#119478: Jul 25th 2020 at 1:22:18 PM

I'm up for the Sinister Six in principle, but the issue there is that the six need to be established villains before coming together. This is kind of suggested in the post-credits scene of Homecoming, when Adrian Tooms meets Mac Gargan in prison.

The problem is that Marvel and Sony are planning four Spider-Man movies. They're currently two down and have two living villains, so unless they want to introduce four villains in the next movie... yeah. Plus, Marvel's Spider-Man 3 really has to be about dealing with the post-credits scene from Far From Home, which doesn't leave huge space for a new supervillain.

So here's one way to do it. Introduce some more villains as normal. Also introduce Miles Morales. Peter dies either at the end of Spider-Man 4 or in a subsequent team-up movie, but as he does, he formally passes the mantle to Miles. More Spider-Man villains are introduced in Miles' movies, and then in Miles' last solo movie, six of his and Peter's villains come together as the Sinister Six.

Ukrainian Red Cross
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#119479: Jul 25th 2020 at 1:38:12 PM

Most comic fights I've seen between Spidey and Ock end with one or two good punches from Spidey, the problem is in getting close enough to land those punches, since historically, Ock's metal arms are so much more powerful than Spider-Man that he can't really fight them. Spidey needs to find a way to avoid Ock's arms, not fight them. They're strong enough to break his webbing, restrain both of Spidey's arms with one claw, and fast enough to bend the tentacle in the way of any punches or kicks, blocking them completely.

Typically, Doc Ock's metal arms are stronger than Spidey to almost the same degree that Spidey is stronger than Octavius's human body, which is why he's so hard to fight.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Jul 25th 2020 at 1:39:31 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#119480: Jul 25th 2020 at 1:42:44 PM

Man this was an intense boss fight.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#119481: Jul 25th 2020 at 1:52:04 PM

Yeah, Doc Ock is just a squishy human, but his arms are extremely strong and extremely fast too, due to the Artificial Intelligence.

In fact, Otto was in a pretty bad shape physically prior to the Superior Spider-Man story due to his repeated batterings at the hands of the much stronger Spidey, similar to Kraven in his Last Hunt storyline.

Edited by Forenperser on Jul 25th 2020 at 11:10:17 AM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#119482: Jul 25th 2020 at 1:54:56 PM

At that point Doc actually upgraded himself by adding four extra robot limbs.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#119483: Jul 25th 2020 at 2:52:29 PM

Doctor Duodecipus?

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#119484: Jul 25th 2020 at 2:57:54 PM

Well at that point his body was already failing so he encased himself in a metal shell which left him unable to his 4 normal limbs.

So he still had only 8 limbs, he just replaced 4 with 4.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#119485: Jul 25th 2020 at 3:03:54 PM

I think they will easy if you just add another villain work as Otto muscle

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#119486: Jul 25th 2020 at 3:14:28 PM

[up] Carnage would work.

But seriously Doc Ock does have a good track record against Spidey though despite being a fat guy with metal arms. He was the very first villain to defeat Spidey, the first to unmask him even if he thought he got the wrong guy, the guy who assembled the sinister six, ETC.

He is overshadowed by awesome to Green Goblin and Venom though.

Like even in the comics, despite scoring a great victory over Spidey and humiliating him in public, it was overshadowed by Venom’s very first appearance.

And as early as the ditko lee era, despite technically being the Big Bad, he was overshadowed as a threat by the Goblin.

And you can’t really do a Superior arc in the MCU since the story relies on the long history of both Spidey and Doc Ock.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Jul 25th 2020 at 3:18:08 AM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#119487: Jul 25th 2020 at 3:35:44 PM

That was the ultimate tragedy in Superior Spider-Man - he was Always Second Best, not only inferior to Peter as Spidey, but also to Norman as Peter's Arch-Enemy.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#119488: Jul 25th 2020 at 4:00:11 PM

Eh.

I find Doc Ock more of an impressive villain than Norman.

Ock actually has a string of villainy early on and Norman has a string of amnesia.

Plus, Ock killed someone dear to Peter and ruined his life without going out of his way for it and plus never slept with George Stacy beforehand.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#119489: Jul 25th 2020 at 4:02:53 PM

Don't give them ideas.

Wake me up at your own risk.
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#119490: Jul 25th 2020 at 4:04:07 PM

[up][up] At least Otto didn't stoop so low as to clone Peter just to torment him.

Wait...

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#119491: Jul 25th 2020 at 4:04:22 PM

I think Doc Ock is one of the few if not the only Spider-Man villain who's consistently done well in adaptations in terms of quality.

The legend has returned.
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#119492: Jul 25th 2020 at 4:09:33 PM

[up] It helps that Doc Ock is inconsistent as a character in the comics, like in one storyline he can legit reform and work with Spidey to defeat another villain who stole his arms, and another he's in a gang war with the Owl just to obtain the materials to blow up New York to prove his genius somehow, and then violently beat up Spider-Man's girlfriend at the time Black Cat out of pure spite. Trying to help Reed Richards save his wife who was suffering radiation poisoning. Plotting to melt the world so that the world will remember him as history's greatest monster.

It is consistent though that he's good for the big comic book style stories.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Jul 25th 2020 at 4:12:35 AM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#119493: Jul 25th 2020 at 4:11:52 PM

> like in one storyline he can legit reform and work with Spidey to defeat another villain who stole his arms

My literal minded pictured Doc Oct having his actual arms stolen,also his arms are grafted onto his body how the hell do you steal them..

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#119494: Jul 25th 2020 at 4:13:26 PM

[up] It was a JMS storyline, but it is canon that Ock's arms have been removed and he can mentally control them from afar. That was the same storyline where George Stacey died.

Here's the guy who stole Ock's arms.

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Luke_Carlyle_(Earth-616)

It lead to this gem of an interaction.

Doc Ock: TAKE THAT OFF!

Luke Carlyle: You are the last person i wanted to hear that from while in the bedroom.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Jul 25th 2020 at 4:18:15 AM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#119495: Jul 25th 2020 at 4:32:04 PM

Ock's ability to take a punch has been one of those things that has easily fit within the audience Willing Suspension of Disbelief for decades, and it feels exactly like the sort of thing where shoehorning in an explanation for it could easily backfire.

Hell, if you had to write around it the way the best way would just be to choreograph such that fighting him is game of keep away - he's so good with zoning and covering his defenses with his arms that he's basically untouchable - especially 1 v 1 - and the fight is in getting to him to land a punch in the first place rather than punching him in general.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 25th 2020 at 4:33:39 AM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#119496: Jul 25th 2020 at 5:03:51 PM

There are a lot of Spidey villains who probably should be dead if they got punched by him. In fact several of them had arcs that play up on the idea that the accumulated damage of fighting Spidey has destroyed them: Kraven (in Last Hunt), Mysterio (Guardian Devil) and Ock (Ends of the Earth) all had that at some point.

I like the idea of Octopus having such superb arm control that his defense is basically impregnable, but you could also feature the metal cast Ock is sometimes shown having fit around his waist (and where his arms actually come from) and have that cast make his torso immune to damage. So basically you need a headshot, which makes it for a fun puzzle boss scenario (since hitting the head of a guy with four arms is significantly more difficult than hitting his torso).

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#119497: Jul 25th 2020 at 5:10:42 PM

[up] Kraven has these potions and other jungle magic that allow him to match up to Spidey, but other wise yeah, he's pretty lame compared to the other rogues.

Mysterio at least has some protection in his suit, and his impending death in Gaurdian Devil was more of the chemicals he used as a villain backfiring rather than beat downs from Spidey.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#119498: Jul 25th 2020 at 5:15:36 PM

There might be something to say about a villain that treats humans as prey and wants to turn the hero into a trophy. But in general, villainy is a pretty self destructive business taking a lot out of you with little to show for it.

Edited by Blueace on Jul 25th 2020 at 8:15:54 AM

Wake me up at your own risk.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#119499: Jul 25th 2020 at 5:16:21 PM

Since his metal arms are just big tentacles, a good way to write it would be to have Peter get close enough to hit him with a punch, but the area of the arm closest to his body just loops inward and Peter ends up punching the metal band, just one or two feet away from Ock's actual body. Peter's punch then does a little damage to the metel arm, but it does more damage to Spider-Man's own knuckles.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Jul 25th 2020 at 5:17:55 AM

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#119500: Jul 25th 2020 at 5:16:29 PM

[up][up] Well getting punched by Spider-Man may be something to brag about for the mooks, but for other villains it's a health hazard.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Jul 25th 2020 at 5:16:39 AM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"

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