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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#119201: Jul 18th 2020 at 8:45:34 PM

Admittedly, the threat behind Loki wasn't so much he was extremely powerful, but that he was an unknown factor. Half the Avengers were recruited for the purposes of recovering the Tesseract, not with the idea they would be facing an overpowering alien army. The Chitauri threat was presented and taken care of within a day, Loki himself was easily handled by Iron Man. Ultron may be also excused in that Fury figured the Avengers had it covered, Whedons approach was that the Avengers are unbeatable if they work together.

But still, the angle that Fury always had Carol on speed dial didn't really matter on any level, the stinger for Infinity War and Captain Marvel wasn't even acknowledged in Endgame. It would make more sense if they were in constant communication rather than a 20 year old pager.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#119202: Jul 19th 2020 at 12:05:44 AM

Just thinking about how even though Luke and co are almost certainly going to return, even if in a slightly different form, we're unlikely to ever hear Bulletproof Love again and that's sad.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 19th 2020 at 12:08:35 PM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#119203: Jul 19th 2020 at 10:07:39 AM

Marvel better buy the rights to that.

One Strip! One Strip!
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#119204: Jul 19th 2020 at 10:15:12 AM

Disney will eventually dont worry

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#119205: Jul 19th 2020 at 7:20:17 PM

....So...

Vision died for nothing. But not in the way you're thinking.

Also, Wanda messed up.

As far back as the first movie, we know that the stones (or in that case the tesseract) can defend against themselves. It's why Loki's sceptre (the mind stone) was able to penetrate the barrier of the the Tesseract (space stone) and it's why Wanda was able to destroy Vision and the Mind Stone.

Which brings me to my point: Wanda is fighting off Thanos, while destroying the Mind Stone and Vision...she made the wrong choice.

We see what she does to Thanos when she puts all her attention on him, and we know the Stone can be used to destroy themselves (via Thanos doing just that at the beginning of Endgame). So she should have turned all her attention to Thanos to destroy the stones in his Gauntlet.

Now, there's the matter of IF she could have done that, because Thanos needed all the Infinity Stones to destroy all the Infinity Stones. Wanda may have only had the juice to take out the Mind Stone, and she was tailor made for that particular job. We'll never know, I suppose. Still I think it's something that could have saved the universe and Vision if she'd only thought of it.

One Strip! One Strip!
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#119206: Jul 19th 2020 at 7:54:19 PM

I doubt Wanda would stand a chance against Thanos with five Infinity Stones.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#119207: Jul 19th 2020 at 7:56:30 PM

Heck, as Endgame showed, she had a little trouble with Thanos when he had no Stones.

Edited by M84 on Jul 19th 2020 at 10:56:25 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
MileRun Since: Jan, 2001
#119208: Jul 19th 2020 at 7:56:49 PM

Wanda could destroy the mind stone specifically because the mind stone was the source other powers.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#119209: Jul 19th 2020 at 8:05:05 PM

The thing is that destroying one stone wiped her and if she hadn't picked the Time Stone, Thanos would have just used the time stone to undo what she did. And she has no idea which stone is the time stone.

But yeah, her destroying the mind stone was also due to her familiarity with it.

Edited by Bocaj on Jul 19th 2020 at 11:05:36 AM

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#119210: Jul 20th 2020 at 1:54:30 AM

I'm pretty sure Wanda was only able to destroy the mind stone because that's where her powers came from (which could also mean that Carol could have destroyed the Tesseract if she had wanted to). And it took her an awful lot of time, too, so it's doubtful Thanos would have let her try destroying another stone on his gauntlet without doing anything.

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
nomansham Since: Jul, 2020
#119211: Jul 20th 2020 at 8:31:21 AM

No I'd be willing to bet that the beam Thanos fired at Thor would be more than capable of handling Wanda's.

Also hi everyone.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#119212: Jul 20th 2020 at 9:03:47 AM

> Vision died for nothing. But not in the way you're thinking.

He died for their sins!

(no wait,thats Tony Stark)

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#119213: Jul 20th 2020 at 9:16:24 AM

No, Tony died for his sins.

And even then, he's still creating arch enemies.

In fact, now I'm gonna shit on Tony again (in a half joking way):

Every single problem the Avengers had as a team was his fault:

  • His suspicions about Fury lead to the argument on the Helicarrier.

  • His decision to try and study the sceptre without talking to anyone else lead to Ultron.

  • Joining the pro-accords side split the Avengers in half.

  • Not returning to earth resulted in the team remaining split.

  • And he's the reason they almost lost the Tesseract.

I love coming up with ways to blame Tony for everything. T'is a shame he's dead. He's a great punching bag.

One Strip! One Strip!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#119214: Jul 20th 2020 at 9:17:52 AM

I rewatched Infinity War recently, and I'd forgotten how much Tony's control freak tendencies exacerbated the problems in that movie.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#119215: Jul 20th 2020 at 9:22:53 AM

Ironically enough, those tendencies come from his near death experience back in the first movie.

Him realizing that he wasn't keeping enough of an eye on his tech is what allowed Stane to deal under the table, which lead to his capture, the death of Yin-Sen and the birth of Iron Man.

It's also lead to Tony being a lot more cautious over how his technology is used, ensuring the Iron Man tech wasn't misused, but also leading him to make even worse mistakes.

One Strip! One Strip!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#119216: Jul 20th 2020 at 9:35:25 AM

Different mistakes anyway

That’s the fun thing about Tony. His quest to make up for Tony always has him making exciting new errors

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#119217: Jul 20th 2020 at 9:45:44 AM

[up]Granted I will said it got tiring a little bit after a while, specially when they didnt allow him to grow up, twice tony did learn smething in iron man 2 and 3 and the movie sweept that because him being a hot mess was easier to write.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#119218: Jul 20th 2020 at 9:49:34 AM

Tony's arc throughout the MCU is going from selfish to selfless. Even during Age of Ultron and Civil War, his positions are about himself: his own flaws and issues. It's only at the climax of Endgame that he is able to make a truly selfless sacrifice, and that's what saves everyone.

By contrast, Steve Rogers' arc is about going from selfless and patriotic — ridiculously so at times — to questioning authority, making his own decisions, and then finally choosing a selfish reward: giving up his career as a hero to be with the woman he loved.

These are all very deliberate narrative choices.

In a good story, the hero's flaws drive the narrative every bit as much as the villain's actions. Tony is an extremely flawed character who manages to be heroic despite himself. That's a very interesting story and it's one of the reasons why the MCU works so well as a whole. Audiences care about him: they want to see him grow and overcome his issues and mistakes.

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 20th 2020 at 12:52:21 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Rorian Dark Lord of Falun Copper Mine Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: Halfway to Pon Farr
Dark Lord of Falun Copper Mine
#119219: Jul 20th 2020 at 9:52:56 AM

Sure if we ignore that Tony had Thor`s permission to study the Spectre before Thor took it back to Asgard and if I rembember correctly Steve wanted to know what Hydra did to it.

Cupcakes are coming, Darling!!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#119220: Jul 20th 2020 at 9:58:39 AM

The lie was that beyond studying it he was also applying it and in his defense the idea that the stone contained a malicious AI was out of left field

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#119221: Jul 20th 2020 at 10:00:36 AM

The idea a stone can have a IA feel silly and I can get why tony would let it out of place.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Rorian Dark Lord of Falun Copper Mine Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: Halfway to Pon Farr
Dark Lord of Falun Copper Mine
#119222: Jul 20th 2020 at 10:03:39 AM

Also Wanda had messed with Tony`s mind and Bruce was helping him. I don`t know where this idea that Ultron is completly and only Tony Stark fault come from.

Cupcakes are coming, Darling!!
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#119223: Jul 20th 2020 at 10:05:15 AM

Tony didn't believe in "magic" in any practical sense until he met Dr. Strange, so he can be excused for not understanding the power of the Mind Stone at the time. That said, Wanda had been influencing him.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#119224: Jul 20th 2020 at 10:06:17 AM

Wanda role in ultron is one of those thing the movie cant really recover from really, neither the fact she was working with HYDRA, i cant fault the movie or civil war for just leave that out.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#119225: Jul 20th 2020 at 10:07:44 AM

Tony was betrayed, found himself on the brink of death twice, then suffered from PTSD and finally had his brain messed up by Scarlet Witch. The poor guy has at least some excuses for his bad choices.

Reading this thread, I get the feeling that Tony suffers a heavy case of Cant Get Away With Nothing, while Steve always got things going his way whatever he does, even if he had to wait some time for them to do so.

Edited by C105 on Jul 20th 2020 at 7:08:16 PM

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.

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