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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
While Spidey has always been a hard-luck hero, possibly the worst part of both the Toby Maguire and Andrew Garfield films was how they made him a Butt-Monkey for the universe and played it for drama rather than laughs. I cringe at that sort of thing no matter where it happens.
Spider-Man (at least the original) is at heart an optimistic property that plays up the problems of being an everyday kid while foiling crime in a costume. It is not a "pile angst on the hero until he snaps" story. The energy of the comics came from the colorful villains, JJJ's antics, and Peter falling back on his inner strength to resolve his greatest challenges. The constant will-they, won't-they, secret identity samba with MJ was my least favorite part of the comics and the films.
That's why I loved the collapsed building scene in Homecoming. It's by far the purest essence of Spider-Man ever portrayed on film.
Since I don't read the comics, I am personally unconcerned with how the films affect them, but they should be seen as completely independent properties.
Edited by Fighteer on Jun 29th 2020 at 2:50:56 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"It's both. Spider-Man is vitally both a colorful hero who fights against the strange, most oddball bad guys you've ever seen, and a inspirational figure who takes all manner of misfortune and self-doubt in his life but never gives up.
Those things don't have to be mutually exclusive - and to be perfectly honest they shouldn't be. What's more, Spidey's been that way for a long, long time.
There was actually a fairly good arc in the recent Spectacular comics that pretty much outlined that, where Spidey goes to the past and meets his past self, and the aesop was more or less "being Spidey can be fun, and being Spidey can be painful, Spider-Man will lose a lot and face so many trials, but it's worth it to come out the other end a better man for it."
Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 29th 2020 at 1:46:22 AM
Sure, but the comics (at least the ones I read) never piled on the hardship to the point where I lost interest in the character. It wasn't about beating Peter down until he had nothing, then stomping on him some more; nor was it about dangling things in front of him and then snatching them away in the cruelest way possible.
Maybe I'm being overly dramatic, but I don't recall Peter Parker of the comics sobbing in the rain on a street corner. Again, didn't read all of them.
What I particularly like about the Marvel take on the character is that he retains his optimism and sense of adventure in the face of all the bad things that happen. It is the youngest portrayal of Peter Parker to date, which helps, since he can be credibly goofy and make credible mistakes. Also, this version has a stable of friends he can call on, including a comic relief sidekick, and a patron in the form of Stark industries, all of which help him feel less alone.
Edited by Fighteer on Jun 29th 2020 at 4:49:57 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Compared to Spider-Man 2? A story where Peter doesn't seem to get the girl at first, then does. Thinks his Aunt's about to lose her house, but then she doesn't. Loses a friendship based on a tough choice he has to make, but gains a beautiful relationship, fights a tragic villain who doesn't make it, but manages to convert that villain in his final minutes back to the side of good due to Peter's own earnest nature?
In regards to the kind of trauma Spidey tends to face, that's about par. It seems dark, but then dawn happens.
Tobey MacGuire's Peter is a bit more weepy than other versions, but he does cry yeah.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 29th 2020 at 1:53:23 AM
Yeah, 2 wasn't bad. 3 is where it got ridiculous with the angst. I wasn't very happy with the portrayal of MJ in that series, though. MJ of the comics was a bubbly, fun-loving Manic Pixie Dream Girl, not a broken bird with crippling self-esteem issues.
I actually liked Gwen Stacy in the Andrew Garfield films, but the biggest problem I had with them was the guilt trip packed on Peter for her dad's death. It turned him into a stalker for half of the second movie and their desperate love affair set entirely the wrong tone for me.
Edited by Fighteer on Jun 29th 2020 at 4:55:06 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"I'd argue that Marvel is very hands off about giving their version of Spider-Man emotional depth and weight, keeping his personal problems at arms length and focusing on issues that are mostly external to him. He's not allowed to grow up even in situations where he should, and barely ever even allowed to feel things.
One of the many reasons FFH is better than Homecoming is that it finally stops doing that, and as a result it doesn't feel like Peter has little emotional investment in the story beyond the things he wants. Granted, they did so by basically replacing Uncle Ben with Tony Stark, but better late than never I suppose.
The MJ romance is also leagues better than the more wish fulfillment-based romance of Homecoming, where what Peter wants just kind of falls into his lap even though he loses it, FFH features a Peter who makes mistakes and actually feels conflicted, trying to get together with another character who makes mistakes and actually feels conflicted (by far the best thing about Michelle), and it works.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 29th 2020 at 1:57:03 AM
Marvel seems to content to develop its characters over several films, taking the long approach to their arcs. I appreciate this because you can count on them paying off at some point down the line... unless they're thrown away for a joke, like Jane Foster, but hey ho.
I very much agree. Also, MJ in FFH is fiercely intelligent and takes the lead when she realizes that Peter won't, both things I like in female characters and in the portrayal of that character in particular.
Edited by Fighteer on Jun 29th 2020 at 4:57:29 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"MJ’s party girl persona was partially a mask she put on to avoid dealing with problems she couldn’t fix
But when written most enjoyable she’s also still a fun character when she does start addressing those problems
Because it wasn’t all a mask. She’s still a fun loving person
Forever liveblogging the AvengersThe comic they made recently about MJ getting back into acting was fun that way. She and Carlie Cooper take down the new Electro during a trip to Broadway (it was one of those "what are the other characters doing while this other story is taking place" deals, iirc) by using MJ to catch her attention, and she gives a whole long distracting monologue that turns into a Motive Rant where she talks about how the problems in her life turned her away from acting but, you know what, screw that because she likes it anyway.
She ends the issue becoming an actress again... and then her agent turns out to work for Mysterio, because comics, but still.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 29th 2020 at 3:41:34 AM
I’m marvel unlimited so six months behind but the MJ solo has been an absolute delight
Forever liveblogging the AvengersI pretty much agree with this and FFH is way better than Homecoming (which I do still really like). However, I think there is something refreshing about seeing a Peter that genuinely wants to do good just because he can as opposed to a Peter that is partially motivated by guilt. It’s not necessarily a Spidey that’s commonly portrayed in media but it is still inherently Spider-Man nonetheless. The Friendly Neighborhood Spidey that’s giving the old lady directions or the Peter Parker that prioritizes everyone else’s lives over his own personal life, that’s all there in Homecoming.
Also, I always thought the Liz and Peter romance was pretty well done. But maybe that’s just me.
You know, I just realized the irony of making Peter's villains Iron Man villains in the MCU.
There was an era in Comic Peter's history where some of his villains were being shopped out to other heroes.
Rhino started fighting the Hulk. Sandman was a Fantastic Four villain, and we all know Kingpin reached his greatest heights when he started fighting Daredevil.
There's also Arcade becoming both an Xmen villain and a spidey villain.
It's like they took that point in his history and did it in reverse.
One Strip! One Strip!I don't mind because they end up more pissed off at him by the end.
Forever liveblogging the AvengersWhich often the reason many become Spiderman rogues.
Peter has that effect on people.
One Strip! One Strip!After reading the Arcade / Kraven Big Bad Duumvirate story they did a bit ago, I'd be pretty down with Arcade as a villain in the next Spidey movie, even if just a minor one.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 29th 2020 at 8:29:01 AM
Oh no. If Pete is still around when the Xmen finally show up, Arcade has to be a villain in a Xmen / Spiderman team up movie.
There's no villain who'd be more logical. It'd be a nice nod to Spider-Man and the X-Men in Arcade's Revenge too.
One Strip! One Strip!Arcade would be a wild one. I like Arcade but I have my doubts here, partially because his shtick cuts a little close to Mysterio's mindgames (but with a lot more emphasis on the "game" part).
One of the reasons being that the new Spidey franchise seems to be making an effort to introduce Sinister Six members (if I had to guess Sony is still on that goddamn Sinister Six movie train). First movie was Vulture (plus Shocker and Scorpion), second movie had Mysterio. Of the non-movie-featured founding members only Kraven is missing (the founding members being Kraven, Mysterio, Vulture, Sandman, Electro and Doctor Octopus, the latter three having made their cinematic debuts before the MCU).
I get the distinct feeling that Sony is planning to throw Mysterio, Vulture, Kraven, Venom, Morbius and Scorpion in a movie and see if that decades-old idea of a Sinister Six movie can finally work still. Although one wonders where the Hell is their traditional leader Doctor Octopus.
"All you Fascists bound to lose."

I'll admit, I was miffed at the "MJ" thing at the end of Homecoming, but more because I was afraid that if the idea that she was the MJ-equivalent gained any kind of traction, the comics would start changing to reflect it, and since I am and have for a long time been waiting for the events of OMD to sort themselves out and increasingly disappointed by how long it's taking, the notion of introducing a completely new love interest for Peter in the MCU seemed honestly kind of disheartening. Over it now in the wake of Michelle being an interesting character in her own right and the comics taking new strides to repair Peter and MJ in the last couple of years, but lemme tell you, at the time the idea of yet another potential roadblock to fixing the Spider-Marriage did not seem like a pleasant one.