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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#118776: Jun 28th 2020 at 11:43:10 AM

I admit, I always found it a little hypocritical that Frank is singled out by pretty much the entire superhero community as the bad guy.

When there are people dozens of people on several heroic teams, most prominently Wolverine, who has been an X-Men and an Avenger (still one of my least favorite creative choices) who killed just as much, if not more people (given Wolverine's age in particular).

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#118777: Jun 28th 2020 at 11:44:25 AM

My favorite Spidey-Punisher moment is when Punisher punches Spidey in the face as hard as he can, and nothing happens. And Spidey just beats the shit out of him.

Because fuck Frank Castle.

My various fanfics.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#118778: Jun 28th 2020 at 11:47:39 AM

Kingpin being stronger than Peter in the Silver Age could be explained by the fact that Peter was still a teenager, making him weaker than his adult version.

Little late, but I don't think so. IIRC, this happened after Pete, Mary Jane, Gwen Stacy, and Flash Thompson graduated from high school, and around the same time that Flash left to enlist in the military.

IIRC, it's part of a really good Silver Age arc focusing on a bunch of supervillains all fighting over an ancient stone tablet that supposedly holds the formula for eternal youth.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#118779: Jun 28th 2020 at 11:49:50 AM

Which still means Peter was pretty young.

Even with the sliding timescale, 616 Peter is about late twenties / maybe even thirties by now.

His big strength upgrades certainly all came around the 90s.

By which point the silver age was over.

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windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#118780: Jun 28th 2020 at 11:52:48 AM

I admit, I always found it a little hypocritical that Frank is singled out by pretty much the entire superhero community as the bad guy.

When there are people dozens of people on several heroic teams, most prominently Wolverine, who has been an X-Men and an Avenger (still one of my least favorite creative choices) who killed just as much, if not more people (given Wolverine's age in particular).

The X-men currently have both Magneto and Mr Sinister within their ranks. The latter worked with the Nazis during WW 2.

FGHIK Since: Aug, 2013
#118781: Jun 28th 2020 at 11:59:49 AM

I can't imagine those two getting along well.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#118782: Jun 28th 2020 at 12:00:20 PM

I don't think it's common knowledge, unlike with the Red Skull.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#118783: Jun 28th 2020 at 12:00:40 PM

Yeah I’m down for dragging Wolverine

I don’t think it makes sense he’s beloved by everyone in the superhero community, which I think reflects more his popularity among the fandom

And fuck the idea that superhero teams need him as the one who will do a murder

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#118784: Jun 28th 2020 at 12:02:31 PM

I’m reminded how Bleach had Mayuri Kurostuchi, a guy so depraved he turned his own subordinates into bombs as the head scientist of the good guy organization.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#118785: Jun 28th 2020 at 12:03:39 PM

Mayuri Karma Houdini. smh.

The guy who completed a genocide for fun.

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Jun 28th 2020 at 2:05:00 PM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#118786: Jun 28th 2020 at 12:06:54 PM

Logan's relationship with other superheroes tends to fall into Teeth-Clenched Teamwork or Vitriolic Best Buds. He gets along well with the X-Men but they're generally the only ones who seem to actually like him while others barely tolerate him. I recall at least three instances where Captain America expressed his disdain for Logan. And I'm pretty sure the Hulk still hates him.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#118787: Jun 28th 2020 at 12:08:53 PM

When there are people dozens of people on several heroic teams, most prominently Wolverine, who has been an X-Men and an Avenger (still one of my least favorite creative choices) who killed just as much, if not more people (given Wolverine's age in particular).

I mean, Frank's not just a soldier or a covert agent or a vigilante who's killed people in battle. He's closer to being a serial killer.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 28th 2020 at 12:10:59 PM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#118788: Jun 28th 2020 at 12:09:09 PM

Well but he is far from the only one.

Let's take the Red Hulk for example. Complete maniac who caused more damage in his short stint as a villain than the Green one ever could've, even tried taking over the country, yet he got made an Avenger. By Captain America himself, no less.

Superhero comics are generally very selective in terms of morality. One of the many downsides of a huge shared universe with different writers who have different viewpoints.

Makes for some pretty big hypocrisy in-universe.

Edited by Forenperser on Jun 28th 2020 at 9:10:18 PM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#118789: Jun 28th 2020 at 12:10:59 PM

Let's take the Red Hulk for example. Complete maniac who caused more damage in his short stint than the Green one ever could've, even tried taking over the country, yet he got made an Avenger. By Captain America himself, no less.

Yeah, and people irl thought that was a poorly written move at the time as well. In Red Hulk's case, it's poor writing and Wolverine Publicity. In Frank's case, it's because conceptually he was created as a bad person and continues to be presented as one in comparison to others.

(Also, I'm not too familiar with the character, but wasn't making Red Hulk an Avenger actually means of keeping an eye on him / control over him? That whole thing ultimately ends with Ross in jail)

At the end of the the day, no matter what X writer tries to do with Red Hulk or Doc Ock or any other villain, Frank would still be a violent killer who deserves to be put down. It's not any particular writers' obligation to treat Frank as a good guy because other writers treat other characters as good guys.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 28th 2020 at 12:16:58 PM

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#118790: Jun 28th 2020 at 12:56:35 PM

A couple things to keep in mind:

First is that, while superhero comics sometimes insist on Thou Shalt Not Kill no matter what, there is a distinction to be made between someone who goes into battle and is perfectly willing to use lethal force in order to win, and someone who goes into battle for the express purpose of killing people, regardless of whether they fight back, try to retreat, or surrender. Guys like Wolverine usually (not always, but usually) fall into the former category, while the Punisher is very much the latter.

Second is that, while superheroes frequently team up with guys like Magneto who have committed horrible atrocities, that's in the context of them having pulled a Heel–Face Turn, or at least an agreement not to engage in that sort of activity for the duration of the teamup. You might consider that being Easily Forgiven, but the fact remains that they're not allying with people who are currently, actively committing murder. For Frank Castle to get the same treatment, he'd need to agree to stop hunting down and executing criminals, which ... yeah, not gonna happen.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#118791: Jun 28th 2020 at 12:59:32 PM

And it just now occurred to me: with Peter being framed as a criminal, it might actually be neat to cast the Punisher be a villain (not the villain, but a villain) in the next Spider-Man movie, hunting Peter down for Mysterio's crimes.

JoLuRo075 Since: Jan, 2019
#118792: Jun 28th 2020 at 1:07:27 PM

To be fair, the Captain was willing to allow Frank to be on his side, he kicked him out when Frank took the Stupid Evil action of kill some villains while the Captain was politely refusing to form an alliance to defeat Iron Man.

There is a huge difference between killing villains in a battle than killing them in a peaceful negotiation.

Edited by JoLuRo075 on Jun 28th 2020 at 1:09:28 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#118793: Jun 28th 2020 at 1:07:59 PM

I don’t think it makes sense he’s beloved by everyone in the superhero community, which I think reflects more his popularity among the fandom

Logan's not really that well liked by other heroes. As pointed out, a lot of other heroes aren't too big on him (I recall the Wasp (Janet Van Dyne) being flat out unwilling to work with him during the Uncanny Avengers phase, which is not a shock).

Logan's an acquired taste, and the X-men are the only ones willing to put up with it. And he's had his rough moments with them too (points at his macking on Jean for years).

One Strip! One Strip!
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#118795: Jun 28th 2020 at 1:18:17 PM

There was so much lionizing him during that period where he was dead

There was a whole book where his new avengers buddies got together and kept talking about how great Logan was

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
JoLuRo075 Since: Jan, 2019
#118796: Jun 28th 2020 at 1:18:53 PM

This reminds me of She-Ra (the Netflix series), Catra was a very evil villain who was willing to kill millions of people, but when Horde Prime arrived, Catra became an antihero who was easily forgiven for the heroes and even stayed with the protagonist.

[down]Catra was a tragic villain, but that does not excuse her actions.

—-

Nebula in the movies is a strange case, with the exception of Rocket none of the Avengers knew her as a villain, so from her point of view there was nothing to forgive.

Edited by JoLuRo075 on Jun 28th 2020 at 1:21:37 AM

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#118797: Jun 28th 2020 at 1:20:04 PM

I feel like that’s ignoring a lot of context around Catra, personally.

Oh God! Natural light!
ChumlyX1995 Since: Jan, 2020
#118798: Jun 28th 2020 at 1:26:50 PM

[up][up][up][up][up]The New Avengers were used to Logan.

In fact, after Civil War, Tony specifically got Ares for the Avengers because he wanted a “Logan” for his team.

So Tony got a “Logan” for his team without Wasp realizing it.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#118799: Jun 28th 2020 at 1:33:11 PM

That's my problem with Wolverine as an Avenger.

The idea that any Avengers team 'needs' a 'Logan.' Like that's an archetype or skillset that needs to be filled on a roster.

Ridiculous!

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
ChumlyX1995 Since: Jan, 2020
#118800: Jun 28th 2020 at 1:35:38 PM

Maybe if Tigra started acting more like Logan, they’d actually let her on a modern Avengers roster.


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