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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#118701: Jun 25th 2020 at 6:39:00 AM

Heimdall is like Helm,always watching

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#118702: Jun 25th 2020 at 7:25:21 AM

I wonder if he ever had a long distance relationship with anyone in another Realm.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#118703: Jun 25th 2020 at 7:51:26 AM

"T Challa knew Kilmonger was a Rogue Agent but it would not be in the US best interest if that ever became public. "

And the fact that Killmonger father try to stir a revolution and a chief of state murder him....the whole thing is a international embarrasment for both fronts.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#118704: Jun 26th 2020 at 6:51:58 PM

Rewatching Dr. Strange.

The movie is less boring than I remember. There could still stand to be more interesting characters, and maybe a shift in pacing from a couple big action scenes to more smaller ones, but while the predominant use of magic as a martial arts enhancer is a little disappointing, there's a bit less Doing In the Wizard than I remembered before, and Strange's journey isn't quite as much of a retread of Tony's on a fresher look.

Still, the entire leg of the movie that takes place in the Dark Dimension feels like the kind of thing that should have been happening throughout the film. Not necessarily the dimension hopping, but the kind of creative encounters and imagery.

Though the focus on entirely the dimension hopping in the sequel shows they at least knew what they were missing and figured on a way to fix it, even though I don't think they had to go quite that far.

I wonder if we'll see THE DREAD DORMAMMU again. Like, if the interdimensional bad guys start materializing on Earth, and we even get something akin to his comics design as A Form You Are Comfortable With.

Also, I wish we at least got more info about Dr. Strange 2 sooner, if not the sequel sooner than it did. I remember really wanting to know what they planned to do with Mordo when the movie came out, and I still do. He wasn't in Infinity War or Endgame, for obvious reasons, so we're just waiting for the sequel to know how much sympathy or lack thereof he's going to retain.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 26th 2020 at 6:57:30 AM

JoLuRo075 Since: Jan, 2019
#118705: Jun 26th 2020 at 7:07:14 PM

Dormammu is so outrageously powerful that the only way Strange (without a gem) can beat him is if he just has to fight Avatars.

An avatar could serve as a villain in the second or third movie.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#118707: Jun 26th 2020 at 7:39:42 PM

Every time I watch Doctor Strange (or bits of it) I think to my conclusion that Doctor Strange is simply not a character well-suited for origin stories. Much like Sherlock Holmes (heh) and Doctor Who the appeal is seeing this odd character lead us through a bizarre world that he knows like the back of his hand. If you reduce Holmes to a novice taking the baby steps of learning about crime he's simply not as interesting (and the same goes for the Doctor and his intergalactic knowledge).

You'll notice that Doctor Strange seems to inexplicably become a lot more of a force to be reckoned with in Ragnarok and particularly the Infinity duology. Because, I think, the Russos simply realized that seeing him take baby wizard steps ain't as interesting as Doctor Strange being this casual, deadpan intellectual who teleports people mid-conversation and develops elaborate magical gambits when it's necessary (funnily Strange's exact thing of "running through every possibility to find the right one" happened by coincidence in Jason Aaron's Last Days of Magic, around the same time IW came out).

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#118708: Jun 26th 2020 at 7:50:32 PM

I dunno about that. On reflection, I think the reason they went with an origin story for Strange (after implying he was already a POI in Winter Soldier) is because they needed one to guide us through the new world that the magical leanings were introducing onto Earth in the film. Strange was the first film in the entire MCU to inntroduce that magic, without reservation or handwaved explanation, was absolutely a thing in the universe (and even then, there was still some reservation to it), so the onus was on that movie to connect these new ideas with the universe we already know.

So Strange directly goes to Kamar Taj, gets multiple explanations on how magic works and how it doesn't, introduces the vast amount of dimensions and that which lies within, etc via having it explained to him through learning about it rather than awkwardly pushing it in somehow in a setting where nobody actually needed such exposition.

Strange might've been the first MCU character in a while who actually needed an origin. But that origin is essential less for Strange as a character than it is for literally everything else around him.

Not to mention that framing the film as an origin didn't really keep them from portraying Strange as an accomplished wizard (he take an enormous jump from "neophyte" to "master" less than halfway in), nor did it really stop them from setting up magic to be exactly the way they wanted it. The problem is ultimately more on what they chose for magic to look like than Strange's mastery of it or lack thereof: what "accomplished magic" looks like is decidedly unimpressive in the world of the first Dr. Strange movie, with very specific exceptions.

One of the reasons Strange looks more impressive in literally everything else in the MCU that he's in is that other directors cut out the "martial arts with magic perks" bit almost entirely and weren't afraid to just have magic just be really cool and majestic stuff, including framing action scenes around it, in the way Strange's own film came off as lacking.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 26th 2020 at 8:17:53 AM

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#118709: Jun 26th 2020 at 10:46:49 PM

[up][up]I still enjoyed the film but I agree. Doctor Strange works better as a character who's introduced as a master of the mystic arts and is the audience's "tour guide" on wacky and weird mystic adventures rather than just another passenger.

He was my favorite superhero precisely because of how he was introduced as an older, more experienced superhero, with different storytelling opportunities as a consequence. Now that they've gotten his origin film out of the way at least he can be more like his IW/Endgame self going forward, but it does ruin the magic a little to give him the same character growth arc as everyone else, pun intended. I'd have preferred we only see his pre-magic self as flashbacks rather than as regular chronological sequence.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
MileRun Since: Jan, 2001
#118710: Jun 26th 2020 at 10:54:10 PM

On a related note, sticking Dr. Strange into Ragnarok was a pretty brilliant move for continuity, despite his appearance being (IMO) detrimental to Ragnarok's storytelling.

The difference between glowy martial arts Dr. Strange at the end of his own movie and abstract magical powers Dr. Strange in Ragnarok was pretty distracting, but if that hadn't happened in Ragnarok, then it would have happened in Infinity War instead. Ragnarok kind of bit the bullet so that Dr. Strange's magic could be as magical as possible in IW without taking our focus off of the Thanos battle.

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#118711: Jun 26th 2020 at 11:33:08 PM

I think where Doctor Strange suffers is that it opens with a solid In Medias Res with a Villain Opening Scene, then puts the character through the standard heros journey that puts the villain's plot on the backburner until the mid point of the movie. The core problem with the overall story is that the attempted character arc doesn't match the threats that he has to face. There was some hinting towards something about time and his watch but the action sequences (gorgeous they often were) lack a certain amount of energy from Strange and his combatants, favoring the cloak antics and lucky moves over Strange finally rising to his training.

I think it would be fine to explore Strange's introduction into the magical world, but give HIM the badass opening scene and a How We Got Here, or make Kaecilius a compatriot and delay the theft of the evil book to 1/3rd of the way through so that the fights have more bite to it.

Edited by KJMackley on Jun 26th 2020 at 11:33:07 AM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#118712: Jun 26th 2020 at 11:48:46 PM

@Known Unknown: Well I agree with you in principle, but another part of it is that you don't need to do an origin story to introduce the audiences to a world with foreign rules. The simplest ways of doing that while maintaining the status of the main hero as a veteran journey-guide into that world is by way of a sidekick, like in both examples I gave (Sherlock has Watson, The Doctor has his multitude of companions). Previous urban fantasy franchise Hellboy throws the audience in a (actually significantly stranger) world of magic but it does so by way of introducing John Myers, a "ground-up" viewpoint character with no prior experience with magic. Hellboy himself remains a grizzled veteran, with the opening scene basically only exploring his birth, then we skip to him with over fifty years of experience in hunting the eldritch.

The aforementioned Last Days of Magic arc by Jason Aaron did the exact same thing, in fact. Added a civilian human woman named Zelma to the cast so they could re-introduce Strange (since Aaron had some wild ideas) and have him and Wong tell her about magic stuff.

The "martial arts, but flashier" aesthetic was undeniably part of the problem, I'll agree.

Edited by Gaon on Jun 26th 2020 at 11:49:24 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#118713: Jun 27th 2020 at 11:49:21 AM

I will said doctor strange fighting scene seen more suited to iron fist

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#118714: Jun 27th 2020 at 11:56:38 AM

Doctor Strange's fight scenes were trash.

My various fanfics.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#118715: Jun 27th 2020 at 12:03:34 PM

I dont think they were trash but it seen they were make to seen him as underdog, I mean we see strange strugling a lot of time and I have to give kudos for that because to many sper movie have the hero at the top for the entire movie and deflecting the entire tension.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#118716: Jun 27th 2020 at 12:44:48 PM

Doctor Strange's fights had very unique and cool settings (ghost fight in a hospital, battle in Rewind Time at the end) but the actual action and choreography itself is mediocre.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#118717: Jun 27th 2020 at 12:47:42 PM

And they could turn up the color grading some dozen degrees. Every indoor scene was dull gray or brown, and scenes that should pop like the Dormammu bargain are instead so saturated that everything fades into dark purple.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#118718: Jun 27th 2020 at 12:52:53 PM

Doctor Strange was afflicted by something I like to call "The Mage Duel Conundrum". You see, mages are in essence codified reality warper types. They're fine showing up on their own doing their shtick against regular people and things, but it is more of a challenge to picture two going at each other, because it runs the risk of being A) too expensive B) a "who can bullshit more" kid's game (if both can basically warp reality how do I define the winner?) C) requiring a lot of creativity. So mechanisms are developed to simplify a mage duel so they won't just bullshit more outlandish spells one after the other until the suspension of disbelief shatters or shatter the budget in half. The oldest mechanism is the shapeshifting mage duel codified by Merlin in the arthurian myths where they duke it out by choosing animal forms to take until one of them is subdued (this is also present by proxy in the bible by way of Moses vs the court mages of the Pharaoh). Another one of the classics is the Beam-O-War, to show the mages in a visual parity. And then there's the route this movie took which is to just do the fighting like they're enhanced martial artists with light constructs.

Harry Potter, being a franchise based around magic duels, is actually funny to look at in that sense. They developed their own mechanism for most mage duels, where they just became what's essentially a western shoot-out but with wands where they fire magic bullets at one another and the winner is the one with the better aim/quicker draw. When they need to bring a a-game for a climatic fight it is more often than not just a Beam-O-War (with the most outlandish mage duel in the series being Voldemort vs Dumbledore, and even that is half a Beam-O-War).

As a side-effect of this its noticeable in most franchises the mages do most of their cool shit when not fighting one another.

Strange vs Thanos in Infinity War is partially so beloved because it one of the most openly outlandish mage duels that doesn't rely on that kind of common mechanism. Thanos vs Strange is just a good old-fashioned "let's pull out all the stops and do some extremely wacky shit until one of us wins".

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#118719: Jun 27th 2020 at 12:57:26 PM

The Dormammu bargain is my favorite climactic sequence in a Marvel movie.

The legend has returned.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#118720: Jun 27th 2020 at 1:01:31 PM

[up][up]It's also the only time Thanos ever used the Soul Stone in combat, to figure out which Dr. Strange was the real one.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#118721: Jun 27th 2020 at 1:03:34 PM

[up]*9 A difference there is that all of those worlds are building themselves from the ground up, whereas Dr. Strange is trying to introduce those things into a world that previously didn't have those things, reconcile all the different things that didn't line up before and introduce the new things that are going to affect the universe going forward. A setting built from the ground up doesn't really have to explain that sort of thing setting in the way a setting that is attaching itself to an existing setting has to, because with those you can just be thrown into setting and only learn the things required to understand the story rather than having to understand how the story interacts with other stories.

It's the reason GOTG didn't really need to be an origin, and really wasn't. It's world had nothing whatsoever do with the rest of the MCU beyond technically being in the same universe, and though Quill got some stuff from back home it didn't really affect his basic character: he could've been an alien and nothing would have changed. So the movie doesn't have to explain "well, how could these guys exist along side Earth?" or "how come someone like Iron Man hasn't discovered this already?"

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 27th 2020 at 1:05:54 AM

Aleistar Since: Feb, 2018 Relationship Status: Hugging my pillow
#118722: Jun 27th 2020 at 1:05:30 PM

On the subject of the Dr. Strange vs Thanos fight, I'm glad that Marvel is trying to branch out with regards to powersets between combatants. Like, in phase one it would be Iron Man vs Evil Iron Man, Hulk vs Evil Hulk, and so on. Now, you're likely to see stuff like shrinking vs intangibility (Ant-Man and the Wasp vs Ghost) or literally everything about the airport fight in Civil War.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#118723: Jun 27th 2020 at 1:08:06 PM

Thanos vs Iron Man was my favorite fight from Infinity War, by far.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#118724: Jun 27th 2020 at 1:09:29 PM

I like how Taskmaster appears to be ripping every badass normal hero's weapons to Cap's shields to Black Panther's acrobatics & maybe his claws.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#118725: Jun 27th 2020 at 1:10:47 PM

And Clint's arrows. And maybe he'll take us by surprise and do some Spider-Man style shit.

Wake me up at your own risk.

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