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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#118601: Jun 21st 2020 at 8:49:49 PM

[up]Back them at winter soldier, honest trailer did rise the question on how good hydra have to be in order to not be detected by tony stark super duper mad skillz

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#118602: Jun 21st 2020 at 8:54:10 PM

It could be an interesting idea if Taskmaster's mimicry abilities came as an attempt to exactly contain that "psycho factor" of the Super Soldier replacements. He copies everything to occupy his mind and keep himself in check, as a sort of super OCD.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#118603: Jun 21st 2020 at 10:46:03 PM

Zemo wasn't the only one. He was just the first to both get outside confirmation, and evidence, and use all of it to his advantage given his accurate assessments of the affected parties. And was the rare person with more incentive to care than desire for self-preservation.

jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#118604: Jun 22nd 2020 at 2:51:06 AM

Hydra got away with it by never having that many people in SHIELD in the first place, but the ones they did have were carefully placed. So if (for argument's sake) Sitwell gets given a team, he can get them all to follow Hydra's agenda but with none of them knowing it.

Plus no-one ever thinking they needed to look. Once Fury did start digging he worked it out fairly quickly which is why he got shot.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#118605: Jun 22nd 2020 at 3:11:02 AM

HYDRA got away with it because everyone assumed it died with the Red Skull. HYDRA fell apart pretty quickly once people started figuring out it was still around.

Disgusted, but not surprised
jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#118606: Jun 22nd 2020 at 4:16:41 AM

Well yeah, that too.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
JoLuRo075 Since: Jan, 2019
#118607: Jun 22nd 2020 at 8:04:49 AM

Quoting a phrase: "He greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist"

Which perfectly applies with Hydra.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#118608: Jun 22nd 2020 at 10:55:53 AM

I'm more talking about after Hydra fell, when the information was sent out there by Widow.

Yeah, before then you can find it easily if you know where to look.

Agents of Shield just revealed that Daniel Sousa found out about the Hydra infiltration years before the Winter Soldier incident was ever a thing (this was back in the 50's too).

Of course, he kinda died (emphasis on kinda...it's complicated) before he could reveal this.

One Strip! One Strip!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#118609: Jun 22nd 2020 at 1:07:13 PM

Dangit, we could've known for sure about Tasky by now.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#118610: Jun 22nd 2020 at 1:15:23 PM

Also when I said this, both russo brother actually answer that saying that hydra jus have a really good encrypting system.

It also said that Hydra infiltration wasnt complete and they mostly infiltrate the weapon department

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#118611: Jun 23rd 2020 at 12:44:17 AM

You know which movie has suddenly become very relevant today? Captain America: The Winter Soldier.

And people used to think having literal Nazis, white supremacists and facists growing deep within America was ham-fisted...

Edited by Nightwire on Jun 23rd 2020 at 12:45:28 PM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#118612: Jun 23rd 2020 at 1:31:49 AM

I mentioned that a while back, and it seems like that movie which was Ripped from the Headlines for its time has managed to age shockingly (and disappointingly) well as time's gone on.

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#118613: Jun 23rd 2020 at 7:29:27 AM

Again, it was always relevant since it came out. That was the point of it. And it's been less than 10 years since it came out.

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Jun 23rd 2020 at 9:29:46 AM

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#118614: Jun 23rd 2020 at 7:55:42 AM

I think Winter Soldier was a great movie, and it's heart is in the right place, but I'm not sure how well it has aged, in large part because it is basically looking back at the George W. Bush presidency and is accordingly blinkered in its approach.

It basically imagines that Wikileaks (including Russian hacking) is the greatest force for fighting Nazis, rather than a force abetting them.

Also, although I think there is a good message in how Hydra took over because of the "original sin" of Operation Paperclip, especially because of modern Hydra being Equal-Opportunity Evil, Hydra feels more to me like right-wing fever dreams about the "Deep State" / "The Establishment" (which often overlap with antisemitic conspiracy theories).

I assume this has to do with some combination of the creators' blindspots and wanting to allow audiences of all ideological stripes to see Hydra as the bad guys.

Like, look at who is in Hydra (note, this is in reference to the MCU films only). You have a bunch of FBI agents/seemingly trustworthy national security people as its mooks. You have Pierce, who is a sort of Neoconservative respected elder statesmen, who is definitely either a Democrat or a "Rockefeller Republican". You also have one of the members of the World Security Council (which is itself a right-wing fever dream concept). And you have that annoying, probably Jewish Senator, who attempted to exercise oversight over Tony Stark.

Edited by Hodor2 on Jun 23rd 2020 at 9:57:39 AM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#118615: Jun 23rd 2020 at 8:27:25 AM

What about the senator implied he was Jewish?

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#118616: Jun 23rd 2020 at 8:32:21 AM

Stern is a jewish name.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#118617: Jun 23rd 2020 at 8:36:52 AM

Stern is a commonish Jewish name and his actor is Jewish.

I'm not saying that the movie calls attention to that (and to the limited extent it could be said to, it would only be relevant to modern!Hydra being Equal-Opportunity Evil). But yeah, it's not great that the "Congressional oversight guy" turned out to be evil.

But my point is more that when I think about it, MCU's Hydra is basically what you would get if Qanon and various conspiracies about the "Deep State" were true. It doesn't have much if any relevance to problems about white supremacy in government.

Edited by Hodor2 on Jun 23rd 2020 at 10:40:55 AM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#118618: Jun 23rd 2020 at 8:41:05 AM

Yeah we've had this discussion just a few weeks ago, HYDRA in the MCU never really put any focus on race, they are Equal-Opportunity Evil / Hates Everyone Equally authoritarians.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#118619: Jun 23rd 2020 at 9:10:39 AM

You're kind of reaching on a lot of those real world comparisons. One could also interpret is as criticizing the "Law and order" "Comply or die" right wing wet dream. As for the diversity of Hydra, consider also that the only one of Cap's real allies in the film to be a (presumably straight) white man is the doctor played by Joe Russo.

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Jun 23rd 2020 at 11:15:32 AM

MileRun Since: Jan, 2001
#118620: Jun 23rd 2020 at 9:22:12 AM

Winter Soldier's core thesis was about the security vs. liberty debate. It wasn't necessarily interested in discussing any other specific failing of the government, including racial representation or supremacy. The Naziness of Hydra just a backdrop to this discussion, because at the time (and I can't believe I have to qualify this with "at the time"), Nazis were basically universally understood to be a symbol of evil. The "Evil Nazi" thing back then didn't have to do much with their specific ideologies; Nazis were just evil, so filmmakers and game designers and storytellers of all flavors would just use them as visual shorthand for "the bad guys."

Instead, the focus of the movie was squarely on the Patriot Act and ethical whistleblowing. That aspect of the movie is still relevant today, even if the goofy comic Nazis-in-the-government storyline has become a lot more awkward.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#118621: Jun 23rd 2020 at 9:26:38 AM

Well, I do think that Hydra is almost certainly supposed to be reminiscent of a certain kind of American Law and Order authoritarianism that is associated with Republicans (although is Bipartisan to some extent). As I noted, I feel that Winter Soldier is definitely looking back on the George W. Bush presidency.

I mean that's kind of the point of the "terrorist watch list-inspired" Project Insight being typical of the Hydra-corrupted SHIELD.

Of course, we now know that Project Insight is a great idea as long as it is administered by Tony Stark or his chosen successor.

Edit - But what struck me is that the people associated with that kind of civil libertarian anti-Bush view (i.e. Glen Greenwald, Matt Taibbi, and Matt Tracey) are now people who are either pro-Trump or at best, hate liberals way more than Trump.

And with that in mind, I'm struck by the fact that Hydras members are basically the types of people that both leftists and Trumpists hate.

Edited by Hodor2 on Jun 23rd 2020 at 11:36:34 AM

Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#118622: Jun 23rd 2020 at 9:41:01 AM

To be fair, I don't think EDITH and Project Insight are really a 1:1 comparison, because EDITH doesn't seem to have any kind of algorithm designed to determine who the targets are, and it seems less pre-emptive in purpose.

Is it messed up that Tony developed it and then handed it to a teenager? Well, yeah. But ultimately is it REALLY any different than Tony designing the Iron Man suit, another incredibly dangerous weapon and deciding that only he and a few people he trusts get to decide how it's used? If anything it seems like the bigger problem is that Tony didn't leave a set of instructions for the stupid things.

Project Insight's big issue was that it was designed as preventative security, using a (HYDRA-derived, though it would have been icky anyways) algorithm to determine who's a potential threat and take them out if they step out of line, which is absolutely horrific. EDITH seems more support-based since the people operating it need to give it commands. Is the scope of it a little much? Yeah, absolutely. But I don't think the presence of EDITH necessarily undermines anything the Winter Soldier says, and I don't think Winter Soldier's approach to Project Insight necessarily puts Tony on the same scale as HYDRA for building it or handing it to Peter.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#118623: Jun 23rd 2020 at 10:28:16 AM

You know which movie has suddenly become very relevant today? Captain America: The Winter Soldier.

And people used to think having literal Nazis, white supremacists and facists growing deep within America was ham-fisted...

The reason people complained about that wasn't that it was ham-fisted, but that it served as a scapegoat. It blamed the misuse of Project Insight and SHIELD's increasingly shady behavior on outside infiltrators deliberately subverting SHIELD for their own ends, rather than on SHIELD naturally becoming Hydra-like all on its own.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#118624: Jun 23rd 2020 at 10:39:41 AM

Exactly.

I for one would've found it a whole lot more interesting if it had simply been an overzealous faction of the government.

One of the reasons on why I think Winter Soldier is overrated.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
MileRun Since: Jan, 2001
#118625: Jun 23rd 2020 at 10:43:19 AM

Either way, I think the movie was smart about not trying to distinguish SHIELD from HYDRA. Whether it would've been by good intentions or Nazis, SHIELD did become corrupted to the core, and therefore had to fall. The movie ends with SHIELD effectively dissolved in the public eye and leads to SHIELD being restructured from the ground-up in secret. That's a lot more daring than what most spy thrillers do, when they suggest that you can just "scoop out" the bad parts of a spy agency and the rest will be ideologically pure.

Edited by MileRun on Jun 23rd 2020 at 10:44:31 AM


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