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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#118526: Jun 19th 2020 at 1:11:22 AM

Which isn't a known fact to the average Joe in the Marvel universe.

Hell it's not even known to most MUTANTS.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#118527: Jun 19th 2020 at 1:12:00 AM

Besides, the comics have another explanation for the anti-Mutant hate (a stupid one, but still). Namely, that a sentient bacteria considered Mutants a threat because they were resistant to infection by it so it spent generations indoctrinating baseline humans with a hatred for Mutants.

Grant Morrison was weird like that.

Edited by M84 on Jun 19th 2020 at 4:13:11 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#118528: Jun 19th 2020 at 1:13:11 AM

...

Yeah, let's not do that one.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#118530: Jun 19th 2020 at 1:16:14 AM

If anything, being a Mutant is a disadvantage in terms of survival of the fittest. Even mutants who aren't so heavily mutated that they can no longer engage in sexual relations often have trouble just getting a date let alone getting married and having kids of their own.

And no, I'm not kidding about the sentient bacteria thing. Look up Sublime.

Edited by M84 on Jun 19th 2020 at 4:16:53 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#118531: Jun 19th 2020 at 1:17:27 AM

He was also the one who killed Jean (for real this time, it actually stuck for around 15, 16 real life years) and introduced the whole Xorn/Magneto thing.

He also like killed Millions of mutants with a siingle Sentinel within MINUTES.

I have respect for him, but his X-Run.....was not my favorite.

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C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#118532: Jun 19th 2020 at 1:22:06 AM

The thing that annoys me about the comparison between mutants and oppressed minorities was that, to the best of my knowledge, oppressed minorities usually lack the ability to phase through walls, control the weather, or send blasts of energy through they eyes or hands or whatever. It is hard to make the cause of mutants a parallel with minorities when the latter have simply different gender, skin colour, religion or sexual orientation while the former have the potential to level a city block during a tantrum.

Another thing that bugs me in the X-Men is that you can count the number of mutant-friendly baseline humans on X-23's claws. Non-mutants are usually either rabid bigots bent on the imprisonment or execution of all mutants, or heavily wary of them and ready to jump into the first group as soon as there is the flimsiest proof of an unruly mutant.
[nja]I was not aware of the bacteria explanation, but on the whole I think I prefer the explanation that all humans are bastards than that they were brainwashed by bacterias.

Which brings me to the question of how suicidally stupid bullies have to be to decide to gang up again a mutant kid whose mutantkind they discovered because he/she just showed the ability to destroy a wall by looking at it? I really regret not having asked that question to Chris Claremont at the Paris Comic Con last year (that guy was awesome by the way).

Edited by C105 on Jun 19th 2020 at 10:24:54 AM

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#118533: Jun 19th 2020 at 1:24:22 AM

It helps that most mutants not on super teams are actually not particularly powerful. They just look weird.

Grant Morrison's run had issues as noted above, but he did at least show us a few mutants who weren't super-powered. They just looked weird. Case in point: Beak. Barnell Bohusk was a mutant who essentially had the worst possible combination of avian and human physiology. He basically looked like a scrawny featherless chicken man. He even had hollow bones, meaning he was super fragile.

Oddly enough, he's actually one of the most "fit" mutants in the comics since he actually had a bunch of kids with fellow Mutant Angel (whose mutation gave her part fly physiology). One of his grandkids in an alternate future would turn out to have the best possible combination of avian and human physiology, being a muscular hawk man who can fly.

Edited by M84 on Jun 19th 2020 at 4:29:22 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#118534: Jun 19th 2020 at 1:28:24 AM

I personally never thought that the whole concept is too off.

I mean it's supposed to be an allegory, it's still set in a world full of aliens, gods and superpowered people.

Besides, real racism is also still a thing within the MU.

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M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#118535: Jun 19th 2020 at 1:31:15 AM

Heck, mutation in the Marvel verse is often so awful that there are plenty of Mutants who would jump at the chance to "cure" themselves. Joss Whedon's arc featured such a cure. There was one scene of a mob of Mutants with awful mutations who stormed the facility holding the cure because they are that desperate to be normal.

Mutation is a serious crapshoot. This is because the X-gene doesn't actually manifest different powers. It actually manifests the same power in all mutants - distortion of reality. It just happens to distort reality in different ways for different mutants most of the time.

Edited by M84 on Jun 19th 2020 at 4:32:30 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#118536: Jun 19th 2020 at 1:53:39 AM

The X-Men's allegory becomes even more problematic when you look at how their writing in regards to POC characters: they're often either killed off, turned evil, placed into limbo, written as stereotypes or just ignored.

[up] For all the problems X3 had, I appreciated that it didn't treat Rogue wanting the cure as a bad thing.

Edited by windleopard on Jun 19th 2020 at 1:54:32 AM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#118537: Jun 19th 2020 at 1:59:52 AM

On the other hand I found it pretty insulting how many people both in and out of universe tried to insist how Wanda's 'No more Mutants' was totally not genocide.

Even apart from robbing millions of people of something that was part of themselves, they totally ignored that an incalculable number of them actually died as a result (falling out of the sky midair, drowning etc)

And according to a Captain Britian tie-in, the damage was MULTIVERSAL.

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Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#118538: Jun 19th 2020 at 2:11:05 AM

> For all the problems X3 had, I appreciated that it didn't treat Rogue wanting the cure as a bad thing.

Hard to argue against 'touch literally kills people' unless you believe this is totally awesome power like turning things into skittles

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#118539: Jun 19th 2020 at 2:14:49 AM

Honestly, a lot of Mutant powers suck. Cyclops' Eye Beams would be pretty cool if not for the fact that he cannot turn them off.

Heck, Wolverine's claws aren't so great either. Unless you think having your hands repeatedly sliced open is fun.

Edited by M84 on Jun 19th 2020 at 5:17:11 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#118540: Jun 19th 2020 at 2:17:11 AM

Not really a problem thanks to the healing factor.

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M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#118541: Jun 19th 2020 at 2:17:27 AM

[up]There's still the pain factor. And there have been times Wolverine's Healing Factor stopped working but he still had to resort to using his claws. His hands were a bloody mess and there was a real chance of him dying of blood loss.

So no, it's still a problem. The Healing Factor simply keeps it from outright killing him.

Edited by M84 on Jun 19th 2020 at 5:19:45 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#118542: Jun 19th 2020 at 2:19:32 AM

Also, aren't Logan's violent tendencies tied to his mutation?

On the other hand I found it pretty insulting how many people both in and out of universe tried to insist how Wanda's 'No more Mutants' was totally not genocide.

I don't remember anyone saying this in-universe? Not anyone we were supposed to agree with anyway. As for out of universe, trust me, the "Wanda committed genocide" sentiment is very strong. Just check the CBR x-boards if you don't believe me.

Edited by windleopard on Jun 19th 2020 at 2:21:01 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#118543: Jun 19th 2020 at 2:21:07 AM

During one early arc after Magneto tore the adamantium off of his bones, his mutant powers went into overdrive since they had previously been reduced due to compensating for the adamantium's toxic effects. The result was Logan becoming a feral man-beast.

Arch-Enemy Sabretooth has more or less the same mutation right down to having a Healing Factor. The main difference is that Creed embraces being an animal while Logan has always tried to be a man.

Edited by M84 on Jun 19th 2020 at 5:27:06 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#118544: Jun 19th 2020 at 2:26:51 AM

"Next step of evolution"...that is not how evolution works.

I can see parallels with real life things like fears of "America will be majority brown by 2035" or "the rising gay rate" and other prejudiced fears of society changing from the status quo... but again yeah increasing ability to breathe fire or whatever is kinda alarming.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#118545: Jun 19th 2020 at 2:39:24 AM

A more valid concern would be Mutants who manifest uncontrollable mutations. Like the aforementioned Cyclops with Eye Beams that don't turn off.

Ultimate X-Men had one story featuring an unlucky kid whose Mutant power turns out to be the ability to dissolve all organic matter in a mile wide radius around him. He ended up killing everyone he knows before he realizes it's happening because of him. Wolverine (who could survive thanks to his Healing Factor) kills him and hides his existence since he'd be all the validation anti-Mutant types would need.

Edited by M84 on Jun 19th 2020 at 5:42:59 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#118546: Jun 19th 2020 at 2:42:14 AM

The incredible thing is Beak did manage to find love.

He’s currently happily married to the relatively normal looking Angel Salvatore & has multiple kids with her.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#118547: Jun 19th 2020 at 2:45:05 AM

[up]I mentioned Angel and their kids. That's why I consider Barnell to be one of the most truly "fit" Mutants. Because he actually managed to raise a family.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Zeromaeus Since: May, 2010
#118548: Jun 19th 2020 at 2:47:55 AM

Beak did have a superpower. The power of being a good person. It took him far in Exiles.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#118549: Jun 19th 2020 at 2:49:16 AM

It’s just incredible considering how fucked up most of the Mutants love lives are.

Like half the characters in the franchise have at one dated Mystique. She’s like the Mutant bicycle & nearly all relationships barring Destiny with her have ended in utter disaster.

She has beared the child of Sabertooth, Prof. X, Wolverine, anyone else I’m missing?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#118550: Jun 19th 2020 at 2:51:15 AM

Mystique even being still alive boggles the mind. The woman is pure back-stabbing scum.

But then again she DID already die and it didn't stop her.

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