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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#118201: Jun 11th 2020 at 3:50:27 PM

Or just have Peter "prove" he's not Spidey in any of the other ways he has at his disposal. I'm expecting the next movie to start with nobody really believing Peter is Spidey, but for the public to believe Mysterio's accusations about Spider-Man to be true even though the authorities have proof that they aren't.

I can see J.J.'s headline now. "SPIDER-MAN FRAMES INNOCENT CHILD! EVEN MYSTERIO WAS FOOLED!"

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#118202: Jun 11th 2020 at 4:42:23 PM

[up]So did Fox become more like JJ, or did JJ become more like Fox? I'm confused.

jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#118203: Jun 11th 2020 at 11:16:15 PM

"So did Fox become more like JJ, or did JJ become more like Fox?"

Yes.tongue

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
JoLuRo075 Since: Jan, 2019
#118204: Jun 13th 2020 at 6:56:25 PM

Something I have always wondered, what if someone like Spider-Man, Loki or Thor became a super-soldier.?

Would they become even more powerful or would there be no difference?

Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#118205: Jun 13th 2020 at 7:00:15 PM

Depends if it even works on those wacky physiologies. At most you can imagine Loki being an incredibly tough Jotunn or the like.

Wonder when the attempts to copy Spidey's powers would start, though.

Wake me up at your own risk.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#118206: Jun 13th 2020 at 7:02:02 PM

Honestly, Peter is already a Super-Soldier.

Super-Strength, Super-Speed and Agility, the ability to scale walls and cling to ceilings for stealthier approaches, and a Precognitive Spider-Sense that warns him of danger. Add on some combat training on top of that (rather than the Taught by Experience method Peter went through) and you got a better Captain America than the actual Captain America (who remember is only peak human in all categories, which is still impressive).

As for Thor and Loki, they don't really need it.

[up] I'm surprised it hasn't happened more often. Spider-Island in both the comics and the most recent animated series dealt with other people getting Peter's powers, though not one for one: in Marvel's Spiderman, they had organic webbing and seemed to lack the Spider-Sense but they did have members of Hydra (and Black Widow also receive those powers) and the first season of that series talked a lot about a potential Spider Army.

The Ultimate Comics had Oz, which was the extra punch in the super powered cocktail that gave Peter his powers, and an offshoot of the Super-Soldier program as well.

In 616 though, the actual details behind how Peter got his abilities aren't well known I believe, so it might be harder to pull off unless someone gets a sample of his blood.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Jun 13th 2020 at 8:07:39 AM

One Strip! One Strip!
JoLuRo075 Since: Jan, 2019
#118207: Jun 13th 2020 at 7:15:19 PM

[up](who remember is only peak human in all categories, which is still impressive).

A fictional "Peak Human" is still superhuman for realistic standards.

And it is noteworthy that its power can vary. Sometimes a "Peak Human" is relatively realistic and in other cases they are able to fight guys like Spider-man or Venom.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#118208: Jun 13th 2020 at 7:56:41 PM

Cap can keep an entire helicopter from taking off. That seems more than Olympic level, I say.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#118209: Jun 13th 2020 at 7:57:32 PM

"Peak Human" means as fast as Usain Bolt, the lifting strength of Lasha Talakhadze, the punching power of Ernie Shaver, etc. All of the top record-setting athletes combined into one body.

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#118210: Jun 13th 2020 at 8:14:22 PM

As far as Cap goes, that's also including the endurance of a triathlete.

But in any case, I had this argument in a youtube video, and will concede here that the other side from me made a much better point. Yes, by the end of the MCU (and by the Helicopter feat, at least, Cap id definitely super-human.

It's quite possible that as long as he kept up his training, he'd just get better and better physically, without the risk of bodily breakdowns.

And yet... the superhuman-ness of the helicopter feat, or the absurd falls he gets up and walks off from, do feel off.

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Jun 13th 2020 at 10:19:11 AM

Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#118211: Jun 13th 2020 at 8:16:51 PM

Which gives you an idea on how insane that is given all the different kinds of body types and all the specialized training all that would require.

Wake me up at your own risk.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#118212: Jun 13th 2020 at 8:23:47 PM

Comics Cap is supposed to be Peak Human. But I think MCU Cap was always intended to be explicitly Enhanced Strength / Speed / Endurance / Etc.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 13th 2020 at 8:23:54 AM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#118213: Jun 13th 2020 at 8:33:19 PM

This is that obligatory time where I say peak human is bullshit and has always been bullshit. Pretty much everybody who's "peak human" in comics is just low-level superhuman (see "peak human" Wilson Fisk regularly bringing down walls of concrete with a punch).

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#118214: Jun 13th 2020 at 8:34:21 PM

And then there's situations like this where Cap can punch the Hulk.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#118215: Jun 13th 2020 at 9:38:20 PM

[up][up] Think of it simply as a categorization. Peak Human in comics generally doesn't literally mean "this character will only ever accomplish feats that a realistic human could," it means "plot-wise this character will be written as though they don't have superpowers, and will be regarded by other characters as such."

Powers wise, it generally means that in a situation where a Peak Human character and a character with even mild-super ability try to do the same physical activity, the Peak Human character will not do as well.

Plotwise, I think MCU Cap is absolutely meant to be considered super-human. It feeds into Schmidt's ideology that be built around his post-serum self, and if the formula used on Blonsky (at first) really was the same used on Steve it does things like transform the body to be enhanced.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 13th 2020 at 9:38:40 AM

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#118216: Jun 13th 2020 at 10:27:44 PM

There was an issue long ago with Badass Normal where people insisted that Captain America (and similar heroes) qualified because their powerset is not explicitly called superhuman, even though his powerset was given to him artificially and is an express enhancement. There is still an entry on Captain America because of the vagueness of the wording, but we cracked down on that kind of use of the trope because people were putting in examples like "they use an outdated mecha or Powered Armor" or "their Super-Toughness is not that big of an advantage."

Akirakan Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#118217: Jun 13th 2020 at 11:03:20 PM

There is this character, Michael Van Patrick aka MVP, who was raised using the plans from Dr. Erskine -he was his grandfather- to raise "natural" super soldiers.

Beacuse of this, when he is enlisted the Avengers Initiative he, um, dies. They clone him and return one of his clones to his family stating that even thought he is literally a perfect human in the peakest peak of condition, he is ultimately considered powerless and he would be safer staying out of action.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#118218: Jun 14th 2020 at 1:24:57 AM

MCU Cap takes more after Ultimate Cap, powerwise, who has also always been explicitly superhuman, compared to 616 Cap who always skirted the line Depending on the Writer.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#118219: Jun 14th 2020 at 4:50:35 AM

Peak human has always been bullshit. Compare the physique/shape of a weightlifter to that of a gymnast and you see that they require completely different things from a human body. You physically cannot have both at once.

It's a necessary weasel but I think that the Ultimate Marvel version whereby Cap or other users of the same serum are clearly low level superhuman actually makes more sense.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#118220: Jun 14th 2020 at 5:05:23 AM

Like was said before, Peak Human in comic book terms means something different than Peak Human in real life. Comic book peak human is superhuman for our standarts.

Look at Batman for example. He is also just a regular human who trained really hard, but in our world he would pretty much be a superhuman. Same with 616 Cap, only he got it through a serum.

Still, there is a difference between those and people who toss around cars for breakfast. Ultimate Cap fell into the clear Superhuman category from the start, which I think is just more fitting.

Edited by Forenperser on Jun 14th 2020 at 5:12:53 PM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#118221: Jun 14th 2020 at 5:06:48 AM

[Joke here about Batman's superpower is that he's really rich]

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#118222: Jun 14th 2020 at 5:09:56 AM

Lol yeah, that's another thing. Rich people in comics.

They would pretty much single-handedly break our economies, were they real.

Edited by Forenperser on Jun 14th 2020 at 2:26:23 PM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#118223: Jun 14th 2020 at 7:51:08 AM

Eh, they aren't too different to actual billionaires. Although having some of their stuff hit the market would really get some people out of business.

Wake me up at your own risk.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#118224: Jun 14th 2020 at 7:53:55 AM

Which is used as an excuse for Reed Richards being useless sometimes

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#118225: Jun 14th 2020 at 8:07:51 AM

[up][up][up],[up][up]...Insert obvious real world social commentary here.

I think the first realistic portrayal of "Peak Human" in the MCU was when Blonsky got the low-dose super serum. With the realistic end result.

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Jun 14th 2020 at 10:12:52 AM


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