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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

ChumlyX1995 Since: Jan, 2020
#118101: Jun 7th 2020 at 5:47:51 AM

No, they’re right. In a Geoff Johns penned Avengers issue, Hank and Jen did some pretty freaky and bordering on NC-17 rated stuff.

I loved it. But I’m not a prude. There were a lot of reader complaints.

Edit: Bocaj beat me to it.

Edited by ChumlyX1995 on Jun 7th 2020 at 5:48:57 AM

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#118102: Jun 7th 2020 at 9:51:48 AM

That said, the way the Russo's write Peter is still interesting. He's definitely portrayed in their movies as a bit more prone to fight, more willing to hurt people if need be (basically, like Cap), whereas in his own movies Peter still gets visibly shaken even when the bad guy kills themselves.

In his own movies, he's fighting human beings. In Infinity War and Endgame, he's fighting aliens.

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#118103: Jun 7th 2020 at 10:22:33 AM

That and there's a lot more at stake with Infinity War and Endgame, so there's less of a reason to be shaken up since murdering the bad guy is a much better alternative than half or full oblivion in that case.

The legend has returned.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#118104: Jun 7th 2020 at 10:42:59 AM

what I love about infinity war is that it feel like the thor movie we never see: the first thor movie feel to comic to care, the second is more like with thor add to it and thor 3 is a comedy, and while good I feel it waste the potencial of him.

and infinity war deliver: seen him try to snark only to stop and somber realize how much he lost(and that rocket didnt try a joke) was sooooo good because it was a serious scene without any humor trying to bring it down, and finallly we see thor as sci fantasy hero he is: holding a ring in space while tanking SOLAR FLARE, to make A SUPER AXE to that down the villian is top metal fantasy viking, which thor should be.

I love thor in that movie, it really feel his for a while.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#118105: Jun 7th 2020 at 11:02:52 AM

With Spiderman and killing people:

Spiderman is a street level hero, so most of his enemies under normal circumstances are crooks and thugs committing petty crimes. His job isn't to dispense justice himself, it's to stop the crime in progress and restrain the crooks for the legal system to handle. In the specific scene of Homecoming where he freaks out about 'instant kill', Spiderman has the drop on the bad guys and it would have been horribly unethical to kill them (premeditated murder, basically).

By contrast, in Endgame he's up against an invading army and the context is more akin to a battlefield than a crime in progress. It's no longer law enforcement, it's war. Also, the enemy has him surrounded and is actively trying to kill him when he activates instant-kill.

On a sidenote, were the thing Spiderman was fighting sapient beings? They looked pretty animalistic and were shown to be completely suicidal in Infinite War, so I assumed they were non-sapient bio-engineered weapons.

Leviticus 19:34
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#118106: Jun 7th 2020 at 11:07:10 AM

Spider-Man:Homecoming is told from the POV of a kid, Infinity War from the POV of adults. He comes off as more eager and rash in the latter because that’s how the adult main characters perceive him.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Jun 7th 2020 at 11:07:23 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#118107: Jun 7th 2020 at 11:09:55 AM

In his own movies, he's fighting human beings. In Infinity War and Endgame, he's fighting aliens.

That's only a distinction if the writer decides it is. And while I'm mostly talking out-of-universe, I do hope that wasn't intended to be the in-universe explanation. It has implications I don't like for Peter.

I'm actually kinda bugged by how much Drax got sidelined. Mantis less so, until we can actually see more of her actually fighting. Drax needs to teach her! Groot... I've never really liked how they've used Groot as an actual character. I think they're underutilizing Vin Diesel... Apparently the only film he did motion capture for Groot was Guardians 2? And not even the dancing scene?

I generally get the impression that the Russos only really wanted Gamora and Nebula out of the Guardians cast, kind of thought it would be neat to use Rocket as a foil for Thor, and didn't give much of a crap about the rest of the team.

Once the plot didn't have any more use for them, the plot dropped them hard. Their past versions barely factor in the time plot, and they get basically nothing after being un-snapped. Even Rocket.

Judging by their use in Endgame and the deleted scenes of Infinity War, it almost comes off as them seeing little worth in the characters beyond as jokes. The cool stuff we did get from them in Infinity War is about as good as we were ever going to get unless James Gunn had gotten more involved.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 7th 2020 at 11:18:18 AM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#118108: Jun 7th 2020 at 11:20:17 AM

That's only a distinction if the writer decides it is. And while I'm mostly talking out-of-universe, I do hope that wasn't intended to be the in-universe explanation. It has implications I don't like for Peter.

Both superhero writers and fans believe very strongly in What Measure Is a Non-Human?. Peter's dispensing of the aliens in Endgame isn't that surprising to me when that is taken into account.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#118109: Jun 7th 2020 at 11:22:16 AM

It depends on the writer. You're seeing that used less commonly as an explicit explanation for characters' actions nowadays: I feel like that sort of thing was a lot more common decades ago than it is now.

Also, I'd forgotten about the aliens in Endgame. I was thinking of him going "hey, lets dump that fucker into space" with Ebony Maw in Infinity War.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 7th 2020 at 11:24:34 AM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#118110: Jun 7th 2020 at 11:26:43 AM

It doesn't fully undo the situation but Peter isn't actively trying to kill the aliens. He does activate instant kill mode and then curls into a ball, possibly weeping, as the aliens dogpile him and get killed by his murder suit.

He definitely comes up with the plan that kills Ebony Maw though.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#118111: Jun 7th 2020 at 11:30:55 AM

It isn't used as an explicit explanation because writers know they will get little to no pushback for having heroes, even ones with explicit rules against killing, kill non-humans.

Infinity War had Spider-Man come up with a plan to kill Ebony Maw and help execute said plan. If Maw were Dr Octopus or Norman Osborn a lot more people would have had something to say about it. Look at the way the Avengers kill the Chitauri or the Ultron drones. In the latter case you can actually see the Hulk taking a bite out of one of them.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#118112: Jun 7th 2020 at 11:36:44 AM

It's a bit different with the Avengers as a whole because there's no MCU Avengers content with any of the others where they are depicted as uncomfortable with causing death even if in a justified situation, like there is with MCU Spider-Man.

Iron Man was introduced killing humans at will because he felt it was his mission to do so. If anything, he was toned down later. Likewise, Cap and his intro as a soldier, and so on with the rest of them. The only other hero in Infinity War shown in their own movies to be not comfortable with killing is Dr. Strange - who, come to think of it, doesn't kill anyone onscreen in either movie.

The difference here seems mostly to be that the Russos - in order to more easily facilitate the plot they needed - wrote and directed Peter to be more in line with the other characters' temperament, without worrying much about how he was portrayed in his own movie.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 7th 2020 at 11:39:36 AM

C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#118113: Jun 7th 2020 at 12:42:08 PM

My take on Peter not hesitating to kill Maw and activating Instant Kill was that it was some kind of Godzilla Threshold for him. There is a big difference between fighting bike thieves and suddenly finding oneself on an alien spaceship that thrashed half of New York and is threatening to kill half the universe.

As for Doctor Strange, it seems the Russos remembered that he took his Hippocratic Oath quite seriously. I think it's a nice touch.

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#118114: Jun 7th 2020 at 1:01:16 PM

Strange may have not killed directly but he didn't seem to have any objections to Maw being killed.

I guess several dozen space needles being pushed into your nerves has something to say about that. tongue

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Jun 7th 2020 at 1:01:25 AM

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#118115: Jun 7th 2020 at 1:06:15 PM

The oath says "First do no harm." He tried talking first, but the Chattering Animal talked over him on Earth, he wasn't the one who acted first on the Q ship, and he talked first again on Titan.

MileRun Since: Jan, 2001
#118116: Jun 7th 2020 at 2:32:55 PM

The Hippocratic Oath doesn't state a doctor should never hurt anyone ever. It only means that a doctor should never act maliciously towards a patient. It technically doesn't even apply outside of the doctor-patient relationship, so unless Thanos scrapes his knee and asks Dr. Strange for a bandage, Strange is free to lash him with all the magical whips in the world.

RE: Peter doing harm, IIRC he was dogpiled by outriders, which are far more beastly than humanoid in nature (at least in the MCU; I don't know anything about them in the comics). In that sense, I don't think it's even a question of, "Is it as immoral to kill an alien being as a fellow man?" so much as "Oh crap these alien beasts are going to eat me if I don't become the alpha predator this very second."

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#118117: Jun 7th 2020 at 2:47:10 PM

Yeah given the Outriders do nothing but primally roar while clawing through stuff, I think it's safe to assume they're more like attack animals than sapient life, and I don't think Peter is too worried about fending them off.

Philosophically I'd also argue there's a world of difference between a vigilante using lethal force on a criminal when they have the power to subdue them non-lethally, and a literal war to save the universe where everybody is fighting to the death. In that moment, Peter's a soldier, not a friendly neighborhood superhero.

The Ebony Maw kill from Infinity War is more dubious. Character-wise he probably should have tried to capture Maw in a web trap or something after using the vacuum to throw him off-balance.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Prowler I'm here for our date, Rose! Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
I'm here for our date, Rose!
#118118: Jun 7th 2020 at 2:53:24 PM

There is no completely and utterly harmless thing that annoyed me like when Dan Slott(one of my least-favorite Spidey writers anyway) kept arguing that Peter should have found another way to deal with the mindless monsters who could have helped destroy the universe.

FGHIK Since: Aug, 2013
#118119: Jun 7th 2020 at 3:10:32 PM

If I remember right, we just hear them start to discuss the plan right? Maybe it was initially less lethal, but Tony changed it.

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#118120: Jun 7th 2020 at 3:21:45 PM

Well, the conversation starts by Peter mentioning the movie Alien.

Let's just say, I don't think the Xenomorph survived being ejected into space.

If anything, Maw had a gentler death because he wasn't harpooned and burned alive by the jet exhaust.

C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#118121: Jun 7th 2020 at 4:23:02 PM

Maw had also been able to dodge effortlessly whatever Tony, Strange and Peter had been throwing at him. It may also have been one of those cases of "that guy seems to shrug off everything, let's try something lethal to see if it at least fazes him".

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#118123: Jun 7th 2020 at 4:44:17 PM

I feel like Infinity War MVP should go to the person on the winning team, and since he's the only one left on his side that matters, Thanos wins that with a snap.

The legend has returned.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#118124: Jun 7th 2020 at 4:55:45 PM

MVP - Most Violent Piercing: Corvus Glaive, for stabbing Vision like a dozen times.

Poor Vision, man. He spends all of Infinity War either near death or wanting to die, and nobody will let him be.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 7th 2020 at 4:56:55 AM

FGHIK Since: Aug, 2013
#118125: Jun 7th 2020 at 6:27:18 PM

Outrider #92528 was clearly MVP for team Thanos. They could never have won without him!


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