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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

MileRun Since: Jan, 2001
#117876: Jun 1st 2020 at 1:13:41 PM

Apologies for being a bit off-topic, but I've been thinking about this for a while. Whenever Tony is injured (for example, getting hit by the cars in Civil War), his snarking about it kind of kills the moment for me. Whenever I see that, I think "he can focus on being sardonic, therefore he's not distracted by a serious injury, therefore he's fine", and it really gets rid of the tension. I dunno if this is just a me thing, but it really makes me care less about the supposed danger of whatever fight he's involved in.

That's one of the more common gripes I hear about the MCU: A lot of people don't like the quick tonal shifts from seriousness to gags and back. It's not something that bothers me so much (I grew up on anime, where sight gags in the middle of big important action and drama scenes are very normal), but I can see how it would be unpalatable to some people.

I have a friend who couldn't get into Guardians 1 at all because of the way it blends comedy into almost every serious scene. They complained about the dance-off at the end because it was "too silly" for a climactic moment, which hurt my soul because that's one of my favorite scenes in the entirety of the MCU.

Edited by MileRun on Jun 1st 2020 at 1:14:09 AM

C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#117877: Jun 1st 2020 at 1:23:19 PM

Actually I thought this was perfectly in character for Tony. He's the kind of guy who always want to seem on top of things even, and he likes to snark off in the face of adversity (Cap calls him on that in Avengers). There are times where he's not snarking (the PTSD scenes in Iron Man 3 come to mind, and a lot of times in Infinity War and Endgame) to show that he can be too affected to pretend.

[up][up][up] OK so at least Hydra is far enough from the Nazi mindset to allow worthy members of non-arian races to reach positions of power in their organisation. Although as far as Raina is concerned I always was under the impression that she never really was a full-fledged member of Hydra but more some kind of external consultant.

Edited by C105 on Jun 1st 2020 at 10:25:22 AM

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#117878: Jun 1st 2020 at 1:23:43 PM

With Tony I've come to expect it, plus it fits with his established personality better, so I'm usually fine with it there. And it fits with Star-Lord's personality well enough, so I'm OK with its use in principal, but I do think GOTG did deliberately undermine a lot of its heartfelt moments that way even when it wanted us so badly to take them seriously (which is why the beginning scene is the most impactful for me, because they didn't pull a fast one on me or undermine the buildup with such antics). For other films like Dr. Strange though it's definitely unwelcome, and the movies like the Captain America series and Black Panther are all the better for averting it.

MileRun Since: Jan, 2001
#117879: Jun 1st 2020 at 1:49:36 PM

Admittedly, I did feel like Guardians 2 went too far with throwing jokes into key scenes. As for why I feel that way about Guardians 2 but not Guardians 1 or Ragnarok, that's something I struggle to verbalize.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#117880: Jun 1st 2020 at 1:52:19 PM

The jokes in gotg did a good job of casting a sharp contrast for when they’re not joking

Star Lord pulling guns and blasting his dad without hesitation when he learns what happened to his mom

His final moments with Yondu

That stuff

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
FGHIK Since: Aug, 2013
#117881: Jun 1st 2020 at 2:31:18 PM

The way I see it, Hydra, as portrayed in Captain America: The First Avenger, were simply a splinter faction of Nazis. Their ideology is almost identical, just with Red Skull at the center of their Cult of Personality instead of Hitler. They may not have committed the same kind of atrocities on screen, but I don't think that implies they weren't doing them. It just would have been too dark for the movie. By the time of Captain America: The Winter Soldier, they're hiding their true nature, using more insidious methods. Trying to distance themselves from the Nazis to make it easier to recruit people, since they can't get away with being Obviously Evil anymore. But even though it's hidden, their core beliefs are the same, as the Framework in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. shows. Once they had power, they were quick to return to full Nazi ideology, though now targeting inhumans as their scapegoat.

Now, I know Agents also revealed Hydra to be an ancient conspiracy, just taking advantage of the Nazis as part of their plans to bring Hive to Earth. But what Red Skull formed out of Hydra doesn't seem to have the same goal. He seems to just be a traditional Nazi, if one with enough ambition to try to replace Hitler and take charge hinself. It's almost like the Hive conspiracy is Hydra's own secret evil(er?) organization, just like they were to Shield.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#117882: Jun 1st 2020 at 2:37:32 PM

Let see

With ragnarok I will said is colonialism messages feel...hollow, aside of thor having the less interaction with hela and at times feel more conection with midgard than asgard, the fact that Odin for all the regret decide to hide is on doing and yet the story give him a obi wan moment with thor feel.....unearned, specially because after he goes into is quiet death, thor and loki have to deal with HIS shit.

Hell, in some sense I kinda somewhat pity Hela, rise to conqueror ideology and fighting back to back with your father only for him to pull a knife on you because suddenly and arbitrarly grow mad on is on bloody conquest(but no from the spoiled, not sir) and hide you for gods-know-how much and them pretend you never existed is...heartless in his own way.

And about ward....while I think the chararter is a mess, I dont want him raped, not matter how bad he is, specially since his team didnt know he was a hydra agent back them, so they just shurg off that, the fact Jessica jones deal with another voice-mind-controller with rapist inclinations is.....ughhh.

and HYDRA being nazis.....its pretty much depending of the writer, the first cap were uber nazis, the second were uber iluminaty who were industrial weapon complex and big data at the same time, Agent of Shield shift from alien cult, trump-as-facistm comentary and evil shield depending of the season.

HYDRA is everything you dont want to be.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
MileRun Since: Jan, 2001
#117883: Jun 1st 2020 at 3:34:57 PM

Ragnarok's commentary is buried in much more abstract metaphor. If you read Hela as a personification of Asgard's imperialist history - not just as a product or an executor of that history, but the actual, physical embodiment of violence-forged colonialism - then that's when it all starts to come together.

Odin's attempts to convert his image from bloodthirsty conqueror to benevolent and just ruler didn't involve coming to terms with the evils he committed; he just hid that history away and guarded that secret for the rest of his life. Because he never truly addressed the violent past, he gave it opportunity to resurface worse than ever.

Hela's massacre of the soldiers who stood against her and her revival of the old soldiers is a representation of the idea that those who don't know the past cannot stop it from repeating itself. In that scene, Hogun pretty pointedly did not care who Hela was or where she came from; he and the Asgardian army charged her anyways, but without knowing what created her or how to deal with her, they failed to make any sort of impact.

The only people who did stand a chance against Hela were those who did care to learn of her past, in different ways. Thor and Loki both inquired about Hela's history from various sources; Heimdall and Valkyrie had direct experiences with her in the past; Skurge worked directly alongside her, out of fear that he become her enemy as well. They're the only ones who knew of her true nature, and so they're the only ones who could properly save the rest of Asgard from her. In particular, the scene of Skurge turning against Hela was the final turning point that allowed the Asgardians to escape, which I believe is meant to be read as those in privilege needing to give up their own comfort and security and confront the past.

The destruction of the physical Asgard alongside Hela is meant to be a metaphor for dissolving the empire. It's not enough to destroy Hela, here representing imperialist tendencies, but reparations must be made. While destroying Asgard probably would not have this effect in-universe, I do think it symbolizes Asgard releasing its control over the nine realms, allowing them to finally live autonomously. The movie's repeated mantra of Asgard being a people, not a place, is meant to say that Asgard is only what the Asgardians make it - destroying the empire should not be seen as the same thing as destroying its modern-day inhabitants. The Asgardians are who make Asgard what it is, and flight from Asgard in the end symbolizes their acceptance that Asgard is no longer what they want it to be.

Also, the Hulk is definitely a jab at the Mighty Whitey, who in anti-imperialist fiction would just come in and solve all the problems. They way the Sakaarians practically worship him is pretty reminiscent of scenes in Mighty Whitey movies where the natives start to idolize their new white savior. Banner flopping in the final battle and the Hulk ultimately doing little of importance beyond narrowly beating Fenris kinda makes me feel like someone on the writing team was a little too tired of watching outsiders come in and save the day.

...I may be reading a bit too much into it, but I mean, if critics and analysts can look for themes and metaphors in deep, brooding biopics and srs bsnss character dramas, I don't see why I can't do the same for my fun comic book movies as well.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#117884: Jun 1st 2020 at 3:40:43 PM

It IS a trope that the original Planet Hulk just plays straight

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#117885: Jun 1st 2020 at 3:46:06 PM

Also, the Hulk is definitely a jab at the Mighty Whitey, who in anti-imperialist fiction would just come in and solve all the problems

That's interesting compared to the original comic, where the Hulk is prophesied to be the liberator of Sakaar (the Sakaarson) but also its destroyer (the Worldbreaker).

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#117886: Jun 1st 2020 at 3:48:49 PM

Jokes on them, it was one of the native bugs

Or Hulk’s weird two face son

Edited by Bocaj on Jun 1st 2020 at 6:49:29 AM

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#117887: Jun 1st 2020 at 3:49:38 PM

Hulk doesn't appear to be a Mighty Whitey nod, simply because the Sakaarans don't have a culture to that extent - and it certainly isn't that this outsider is coming into this culture and solving their problems. Hulk is just another slave forced to entertain the despot - he's just a favored one. Hulk is a symbol of Bread and Circuses, and is neither treated like an outsider (as Sakaar is a melting pot already) nor treated like a savior (as he is not fixing anything, nor perceived or presented as doing such).

Generally, most of trying to merge Sakaar into the main story's anti-imperialist story is going to be a reach, because it very blatantly wasn't written with that in mind. It's perhaps the movie's biggest flaw that the two stories have little to do with one another, even thematically.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 1st 2020 at 3:52:02 AM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#117888: Jun 1st 2020 at 3:54:00 PM

I did like that the animated adaptation of Planet Hulk had that, while Hulk plays a big role in overthrowing the Red King, ultimately the finishing blow is Caiera's, as it's her people that the Red King personally exterminated to turn her into a slave.

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#117889: Jun 1st 2020 at 3:58:06 PM

That seems like a stretch. In the movie, Hulk was just a popular gladiator. He's not a savior and didn't try to be.

Edited by Cortez on Jun 1st 2020 at 7:19:01 AM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#117890: Jun 1st 2020 at 3:59:10 PM

It's strange to see Hulk in Planet Hulk criticized for being a mighty whitey when the writer of that story is a Korean-American man.

Edited by windleopard on Jun 1st 2020 at 4:00:07 AM

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#117891: Jun 1st 2020 at 4:00:56 PM

It's a really big reach. Especially since like others have said, both film and comics versions of Sakaar are a melting pot of people who become stranded there.

In fact the actual natives of Sakaar are Miek's people.

Edited by Cortez on Jun 1st 2020 at 7:03:15 AM

MileRun Since: Jan, 2001
#117892: Jun 1st 2020 at 4:09:46 PM

That's just my reading of it. The imagery is there, IMO, and I think it was a deliberate decision to not have the mighty whitey aspect play out as it normally does.

I do agree that the Sakaar plot threads and the Asgard plot threads are pretty badly divorced, but there is some thematic consistency between the two plots (Sakaar does end up with a slave uprising upending the Grandmaster's reign). It's similar to a Double Aesop, but rather than a straight moral message delivered to the characters, it's more of a thematic link.

I do fully acknowledge how stretchy my readings of Banner's role and Ragnarok's themes in general are.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#117893: Jun 1st 2020 at 4:15:44 PM

The movie had to be a lot of things, having to include a Hulk plot while being a Thor film and destroy Asgard and set up Infinity War and so on, and Taika said he spent every day wondering if he was going to be fired, so frankly I'm pretty okay with how cohesive it largely turned out even if there's still a few rough patches left. The thematic spine is sound.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Jun 1st 2020 at 4:17:14 AM

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#117894: Jun 1st 2020 at 4:41:22 PM

This talk reminds of the Renegade Cut video that discussed Ragnarok's themes of colonialism.

One bit I find amusing is when he points out the most unrealistic part of the film was that a warmonger like Odin would have the clarity to stop his conquests, since that pretty much never happens in real life.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#117895: Jun 1st 2020 at 5:39:38 PM

It seems that seeing how bloodthirsty Hela became played a role in it, as it forced him to look at himself and how his influence made her that way....I think.

Maybe Frigga just told him to stop that shit.

One Strip! One Strip!
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#117896: Jun 1st 2020 at 6:24:48 PM

The narrative would honestly work better if Hela had been Odin's aunt rather than his daughter, and her partnership had been with her brother Buri (Odin's father). That way you create some distance (while still having the dark legacy alive) between the conquest and Odin. Thus: Buri and Hela were ruthless conquerors who conquered the realms (curiously also fitting with Malekith's beef against Asgard in the dark world, given it was Buri he quarreled with), Odin came about after the actual conquest and decided to mellow out, but still refused to dissolve his empire and just swept the bloody tyranny of his father under the rug.

It also creates a funny parallel here of Odin sharing the paternal issue Loki has of struggling to deal with being the son of a monster and inadvertently echoing many of his father's monstrosities.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#117897: Jun 1st 2020 at 9:04:08 PM

If you read the Asgard plot as a colonialism metaphor, then that creates some Unfortunate Implications in the ending, where the Asgardians head off to establish a colony on Earth.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#117898: Jun 1st 2020 at 9:23:49 PM

Eh, they call it a colony but it's it's closer to a group of migrants in search of a new home, and it's been a while but I assume they negotiated with the government of Norway to settle properly.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#117899: Jun 1st 2020 at 9:35:56 PM

. . . What is it you think a colony is?

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#117900: Jun 1st 2020 at 9:36:30 PM

The Asgardians post Ragnarok and post Thanos attack and post Snap are a bunch of refugees at this point living humble lives.

It's not even clear how much autonomy they actually have anymore, even if they still have the whole monarchy system.

Edited by M84 on Jun 2nd 2020 at 12:38:10 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised

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