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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#117851: Jun 1st 2020 at 9:46:06 AM

Nidavillir expected Asgardian protection. So at least that much in that specific place.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#117852: Jun 1st 2020 at 9:46:26 AM

It was part of the nine realms in name only,Odin never conquered Earth (that we know of) but its assumed due to the size of their empire that it would include Earth anyway

The myths about Odin,Thor have to come from somewhere right?

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#117853: Jun 1st 2020 at 9:47:47 AM

I assume that Asgard had some presence on Midgard *Earth for a bit before losing interest.

Because of the myths and because of the hidden super weapon

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
ChumlyX1995 Since: Jan, 2020
#117854: Jun 1st 2020 at 10:19:08 AM

Also. Is Asgard only one city and not a country?

So at the end of Ragnarok, in the ship, Thor could only hold people that escaped from the city?

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#117855: Jun 1st 2020 at 10:33:58 AM

Asgard is a city-state. Some shots of the space-island give off the impression that it's bigger than it looks, though.

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#117856: Jun 1st 2020 at 11:30:37 AM

Fascism is not A Lighter Shade of Black than nazism. They are all vile blights on our world.

Edited by Eriorguez on Jun 1st 2020 at 8:30:45 PM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#117857: Jun 1st 2020 at 11:33:58 AM

[up] Nazism is the very worst form of fascism.

If you compare Franco and Hitler, Hitler is definitely the worse one.

Doesn't make Franco a good man, but it's just a fact.

Edited by Forenperser on Jun 1st 2020 at 8:34:07 PM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#117858: Jun 1st 2020 at 11:34:52 AM

A Nazi by Any Other Name and all that jazz.

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#117859: Jun 1st 2020 at 11:40:51 AM

Which I simply don't think applies in this case. Nazism's main focus is racism, which MCU-Hydra never focused on (except in the virtual Framework reality).

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#117860: Jun 1st 2020 at 11:51:11 AM

Coulda sworn Nazis are against pretty much anyone aside from themselves and those who are complicit with their methods and ideaology. Which is well beyond just racism.

Edited by AyyItsMidnight on Jun 1st 2020 at 11:51:22 AM

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#117861: Jun 1st 2020 at 11:55:11 AM

Yes and anybody who is not "themselves" are people who aren't "Aryan". They wanted to basically wipe out everybody else.

HYDRA is bent on world domination and subjugation, which you can call horrible and fascist, but they lack the racial supremacy aspect of the Nazis, seeing how their high-ranking members include people of all nationalities.

This is not me defending HYDRA, this is just me objecting to unfitting comparisons, which in my eyes underplay the very real evils of the Nazis.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#117862: Jun 1st 2020 at 11:59:21 AM

Nazis were race-heavy fascists, but that's merely their take on the usual tribal component of fascism: "we are an ancient proud race that has been denied of their glory by dirty outsiders".

Italian fascists deemed themselves the heirs of Rome (nevermind the fact that the Byzantine empire outlasted Rome by a millenium), Spanish fascists had a massive Catholic backing and reveled on the Reconquista (so they had visigoths as glorious leaders, and the Cordoba Caliphate as an invader, despite, well, being something any sane person would be proud of)...

They always think of themselves as better. That's fascism. And, the less people are, the more exclusive their "us" becomes. Supporters become disposable pawns.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#117863: Jun 1st 2020 at 12:01:51 PM

Except it's not like HYDRA is similar to Nazis, it's that HYDRA is literally Nazis. People aren't saying the HYDRA are Nazis just because they're a group of fascist assholes bent on world domination, people are saying they're Nazis because they're literally a spin-off group from the original German Third Reich.

They're not metaphorically Nazis, they're literally Nazis. Just because their ideology as an organization has changed somewhat since the time of World War 2 doesn't change the fact that they're literally Nazis.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#117864: Jun 1st 2020 at 12:06:49 PM

[up] Which is false, because again, HYDRA was started centuries before WW 2 and the Nazi faction was basically the rogue faction part of an Enemy Civil War with the original faction. (Plus, in the MCU Red Skull also never focused on racial aspects).

If it would be about comics HYDRA, I'd agree with you in a heartbeat, but MCU Hydra has no racial elements.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#117865: Jun 1st 2020 at 12:10:20 PM

Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. has characters refer to HYDRA as Nazis several times throughout the series, so it's not entirely baseless.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#117866: Jun 1st 2020 at 12:12:37 PM

They also have several heroic characters display Fantastic Racism numerous times throughout the series.

The characters have their opinions and views, but they are not the gospel of truth, at least that's how I see it.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#117867: Jun 1st 2020 at 12:18:00 PM

And this is where we get into the weird area of what the characters are trying to say and what the writers are trying to say.

[up]Edit: Were those instances of "Fantastic Racism" ever recanted or apologized for? Because that might be the difference between what's supposed to be a character flaw, isolated entirely to that character as far as analysis of the narrative goes, and what's supposed to be put forth, unintentional or otherwise, by the writer.

Edited by fredhot16 on Jun 1st 2020 at 12:28:11 PM

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#117868: Jun 1st 2020 at 12:18:21 PM

Ao S Hydra are unambiguously nazis while the movies depict them as just another evil organization that wants to take over the world like COBRA from G.I. Joe.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#117869: Jun 1st 2020 at 12:26:34 PM

I think we should just agree to disagree and settle on them being evil (and overused).

[up][up] Mack to this day absolutely hates any kind of mechanical lifeforms and refuses to consider them as such, on top of my head.

Edited by Forenperser on Jun 1st 2020 at 9:27:11 PM

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RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#117870: Jun 1st 2020 at 12:30:16 PM

I think Hydra can be more accurately classified as Nazi-collaborators.

Hydra doesn't share the Nazis' ideology because Hydra doesn't really have an ideology beyond world domination and authoritarianism for its own sake. Them fighting for Nazi Germany during World War II was opportunism on their part, hitching their wagon to the Nazis' star.

Edited by RavenWilder on Jun 1st 2020 at 12:30:58 PM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#117871: Jun 1st 2020 at 12:33:37 PM

Nazi-Piggybackers tongue

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Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#117872: Jun 1st 2020 at 12:34:17 PM

Franco's contribution to cinema kinda points towards racism.

Franco also had executed the cousin he grew up with, and couldn't care less about his republican brother, disregarding his niece and sister-in-law after said brother was shot down. And, that's how people who grew up with him were treated, apparently some of his approaches were too much for Hitler. Because the guy utterly depised people who weren't reactionary Catholics.

Fascism is built on hatred of the different. If you think genociding people due to their ethnicity is better or worse than genociding people due to their ideals, you should rethink that.

C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#117873: Jun 1st 2020 at 12:37:09 PM

I can't remember right now: have we seen a lot of non-white Hydra characters onscreen? Right now the only one I can think of who looked a bit less caucasian than the others was Sitwell.

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Altris from the Vortex Since: Aug, 2019 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#117875: Jun 1st 2020 at 12:55:47 PM

Apologies for being a bit off-topic, but I've been thinking about this for a while. Whenever Tony is injured (for example, getting hit by the cars in Civil War), his snarking about it kind of kills the moment for me. Whenever I see that, I think "he can focus on being sardonic, therefore he's not distracted by a serious injury, therefore he's fine", and it really gets rid of the tension. I dunno if this is just a me thing, but it really makes me care less about the supposed danger of whatever fight he's involved in.

So, let's hang an anchor from the sun... also my Tumblr

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