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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#117626: May 20th 2020 at 3:26:17 PM

There's a big difference between " friendly neighborhood local volunteer, who at most tackles small crimes" and "enlisted in an international combat effort against experienced former military".

And with the second one, Aunt May's consent and some actual truthful foreknowledge for Peter would've been a big difference.

...Hell, Tony was violating the Accords by even involving Peter without his legal guardian's consent.

Altris from the Vortex Since: Aug, 2019 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#117627: May 20th 2020 at 3:26:47 PM

[up][up]Yes, Peter has been fighting crime and saving people in his local area, but there's a big difference between "stopping Joe Mugger and saving a family" and "traveling all the way to Germany to assist in an international manhunt for dangerous fugitives".

Edit: [nja]

Edited by Altris on May 20th 2020 at 3:27:09 AM

So, let's hang an anchor from the sun... also my Tumblr
C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#117628: May 20th 2020 at 3:28:13 PM

If Homecoming is any indication, he did not have that many villains to fight. I was under the impression that the "Avengers" thugs were the first serious threat he had to fight in New York.

Sometimes I am wondering whether the reason Tony first caught sight of Peter was because he had somehow stumbled on his origin story instead of his achievements as a crimefighter.

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#117629: May 20th 2020 at 3:31:39 PM

After this, he ran into the guys selling alien tech. So, there aren't any Lizards or Rhino or anyone like that on his track record before all this.

Edited by Blueace on May 20th 2020 at 6:35:10 AM

Wake me up at your own risk.
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#117630: May 20th 2020 at 3:35:22 PM

I mean he still did pretty good in the fight. Plus Tony did admit he was wrong to involve him afterwards. The only reason Peter got involved with Thanos is that he snuck on board.

Edited by Bullman on May 20th 2020 at 5:39:10 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#117631: May 20th 2020 at 3:37:45 PM

Hey, everybody knows that the best defense against a war crimes indictment is to say, "My bad."

Edited by Fighteer on May 20th 2020 at 6:38:11 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#117632: May 20th 2020 at 3:40:02 PM

He did come up with the strategy to take Gi-Ant-Man down, but outside of that the only person he actually bested was Bucky. We outright see Sam shooting around him, beating his Spider Sense, and preferring battlefield removal over direct engagement. Cap just elected to talk to him, and then just tried to keep his hands busy before running off. Bucky, on the other hand, had his punch caught, and dangerously threw a large object at Peter's head.

I mean, as usual, Tony takes unilateral action for what he thinks is best for everyone, it blows up in his face, and he has to humbly apologize that his efforts to minimize his guilt made him do something even more guilty. (See also, deciding on the Accords before bringing it to anyone else, "locking Wanda in her room", bringing a child to an international super-fight in violation of the accords, unnecessarily blasting then imprisoning Sam, picking the airport fight to start with...)

It's actually pretty sad. The man is trying to do better, he's just really stubborn, won't stop, and won't listen to anyone's advice.

...Ironically the one time he listens to Sam, and Sam tells him to go alone, it blows up in everyone's face.

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on May 20th 2020 at 5:47:27 AM

Altris from the Vortex Since: Aug, 2019 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#117633: May 20th 2020 at 3:52:52 PM

One does wonder what would have happened if Tony had allowed Peter to keep talking to Cap. Not much would have changed immediately, I don't think, but it would've been interesting to see Peter's naivete about the whole situation influencing the other combatants (since he says "Hey, everyone" before Tony cuts him off), either right there or later in the movie.

So, let's hang an anchor from the sun... also my Tumblr
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#117634: May 20th 2020 at 3:54:47 PM

I remember years ago when The Avengers (2012) first came out, I remember seeing someone trying to argue that Tony committed a war crime by redirecting the nuke towards the Chitauri ship during the climax. Their argument seemed to hinge on "well, we don't see Chitauri citizens and children on that ship, so we have to assume they were there". I found that rather perplexing, since there's no reason the Chitauri would bring civilians to the front-line during an invasion.

It's something I think about now and again. I sometimes wonder how they felt about the more morally-gray actions Tony pulled later on. tongue

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#117635: May 20th 2020 at 3:59:04 PM

The Accords would have gone through regardless of what Tony did and he was actually trying to minimize any negative impact on the Avengers. And considering people wanted Wanda's head after what happened in Lagos (not to mention the issues with her status as a citizen), him keeping her under house arrest was protecting her.

[up] Some fans have an absurd definition of what war crimes are and Tony being called a war criminal is one of the best examples of this. Hell, he's the only MCU character who is called a war criminal by the fandom. Not even characters who actually would qualify as this don't get called that.

Edited by windleopard on May 20th 2020 at 4:00:50 AM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#117636: May 20th 2020 at 4:00:20 PM

As far as putting Wanda under house arrest goes, I'm with Tony on that one.

Unintentionally or not, she did cause collateral damage. And it's not like she is like, being tortured or anything, she is just forbidden to leave until the investigation is over, which is completely normal procedure.

Edited by Forenperser on May 20th 2020 at 1:09:48 PM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Altris from the Vortex Since: Aug, 2019 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#117637: May 20th 2020 at 4:02:40 PM

I can't argue with his rationale, but how he explains it is massive Poor Communication Kills. If he had just said "your citizenship status is now a much bigger problem and there are people who want revenge on you personally, plus there's an investigation happening into the whole Laos thing so it's really just standard procedure" as the leadup to the "it was for your protection" part, it probably would have gone over better.

Edited by Altris on May 20th 2020 at 4:07:09 AM

So, let's hang an anchor from the sun... also my Tumblr
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#117638: May 20th 2020 at 4:11:01 PM

Scott have some level of battle experience and barely, again the actuall battle he throw a full bus on rhodey that could nearly kill him and them throw him like a ragdoll again, he also throw a full container with gasoline that explode and even steve give him a look.

And scott admit in ant man 2 that he made a poor choice and he didnt really know much of what was going on.

"I mean he still did pretty good in the fight."

by handly good it means beating HYDRA best assasin and full train soldier on is own.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#117639: May 20th 2020 at 5:43:40 PM

What point does Tony learn about the winters soldiers again? I know he dismisses it at first but as far as I remember Tony is running around most of the movie assuming Steve is doing all the nonsense he's doing specifically to save Bucky. Which he is doing for part of most of the movie.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#117640: May 20th 2020 at 5:45:28 PM

Steve tells him about the additional Winter Soldiers at the airport, and Tony brushes it off. Later when he's informed that Zemo killed and replaced Bucky's actual interrogator, he comes around to doing something about it.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on May 20th 2020 at 5:49:06 AM

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#117641: May 20th 2020 at 5:51:47 PM

Yeah, once Tony realizes that Zemo framed Bucky and that he wasn't responsible for the UN bombing, that's when he starts to reconsider Steve's actions.

Then the whole "Bucky killed my parents" reveal happened and everything kind of went off the rails.

Edited by chasemaddigan on May 20th 2020 at 8:52:36 AM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#117642: May 20th 2020 at 5:54:26 PM

I think my point is that before the airport, Tony didn't know Steve was trying to save the world. A goal he gets behind once he's convinced its serious.

He thinks Steve is risking everything to save Bucky. Which is in character lets be honest.

It doesn't excuse what Tony does up to that point but does sort of explain why in Tony's mind it seemed like a good idea at the time.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#117643: May 20th 2020 at 6:03:31 PM

To Peter's credit though:

Things to actually hit the Falcon while he's flying:

  • Peter's web shooter
  • Ant-Man
  • Black Panther jumping on him
  • Winter Soldier's grappling hook immediately after Sam was on the ground, while he was preoccupied by rescuing Steve
  • Thanos with the Power Stone

Things that missed:

  • 3 Project INSIGHT Helicarriers firing simultaneously
  • Iron Man
  • Vision
  • A Quinjet
  • Several fully armed soldiers
  • Thanos' army, twice
  • any army Sam went against on a para rescue mission

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#117644: May 20th 2020 at 6:14:57 PM

Also, I just wanted to bring up how cool this was:

Clint is running with the damn Infinity Gauntlet and even he is stunned by what he just saw.

MedusaStone Since: Jan, 2015
#117645: May 20th 2020 at 8:42:15 PM

[up]x9 Rumlow set off a suicide bomb, but Wanda caused collateral damage? By throwing it into the air instead of letting it go off at ground-level where there were hundreds of people?

Altris from the Vortex Since: Aug, 2019 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#117646: May 20th 2020 at 8:47:16 PM

She didn't know that the diplomats were in the skyscraper, in her defense, but they still died. That's collateral damage even if it was accidental.

So, let's hang an anchor from the sun... also my Tumblr
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#117647: May 20th 2020 at 9:06:22 PM

I mean, if she'd done nothing, it would have been much, much worse. That's not totally comforting to the people who died, or those who're their loved ones, but it's the truth.

Hell, if Wanda had been a few seconds later, a lot of people at ground zero would have died, along with Steve....which likely would have utterly derailed Zemo's plan (since who would defend Bucky if Steve was dead).

Damn. Crossbones nearly saved the Avengers.

One Strip! One Strip!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#117648: May 20th 2020 at 9:31:55 PM

If Steve was so angry about Wanda being under house arrest, he should have taken her place.

He was the boss on that mission and Wanda got in trouble covering for him getting in trouble.

Go to your room, Steve!

Steve. Steve don't you climb out that window and run to a rock concert!

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#117649: May 20th 2020 at 9:37:04 PM

Steve was a young man in the forties. He'd be more of a jazz fan.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#117650: May 20th 2020 at 9:44:09 PM

Dammit Steve don't you climb out that window and run away to that jazz brunch!

Forever liveblogging the Avengers

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