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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#117276: Apr 29th 2020 at 2:13:41 AM

The question of whether he'd get to live or die was an ongoing subplot for most of the movie, so it's not suddenly dropped on you, plus he asked to be killed beforehand so he had agency in the matter. That they also did a poor job of following up on it meaningfully afterward doesn't make it fridging.

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#117277: Apr 29th 2020 at 6:13:53 AM

A personal opinion should barely factor in to either definition of fridging.

ChumlyX1995 Since: Jan, 2020
#117278: Apr 29th 2020 at 7:45:37 AM

In Thor: The Dark World, I’d say Thor’s mother death was integral to Loki and Odin’s development, but ironically she was just a Woman in Refrigerator for Thor.

Endgame retroactively subverts this for 2023 Thor.

ChumlyX1995 Since: Jan, 2020
#117279: Apr 29th 2020 at 8:09:40 AM

Of course, the biggest sacrificial lambs in the MCU are the Warriors Three, who aren’t even mentioned by the main character after their deaths.

JoLuRo075 Since: Jan, 2019
#117280: Apr 29th 2020 at 8:41:37 AM

[up]Ironically the only companions of Thor that were not sacrificial lambs or put in a refrigerator, were the women. (Sif and Valkyrie)

Loki was an accidental hero when he exiled Sif.

Edited by JoLuRo075 on Apr 29th 2020 at 8:43:30 AM

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#117281: Apr 29th 2020 at 9:24:02 AM

[up][up]Just edit your post, don't double-post, unless you're moving to a different subject or writing something super-long.

  1. Fridging is not supposed to be a very subjective thing.
  2. Do. Not. Conflate. Fridging. With. Regular. Character. Death.
Stuffed into the Fridge and Sacrificial Lion or Sacrificial Lamb are not supposed to be the same trope, and don't apply to every death. Sometimes named characters die, and it doesn't have to be any of the above tropes.


Infinity War was basically the first time Thor was ever given time to grieve anyone without immediately having to return to the chains of being a king. And we see that that's normal for Odin as well, given he doesn't more fully emote until Thor starts taking charge more. Hell, in the first film, The Odinsleep was basically a metaphor for bottling in your emotions until you can't function anymore.

The Warriors Three, despite being named, are not of any importance in either Dark World or Ragnarok (by Infinity War, Thor recognizes Heimdall as his best friend), and as such their character deaths are pretty much almost indistinguishable from any other mook general. Their deaths don't serve to explain that Hela is playing for keeps, given:

  1. She's the goddess of Death
  2. She was bad enough Odin had to imprison her for eternity
  3. She shattered Mjolnir
  4. She killed lots of other people at the same time.

Just check the summarized descriptions for the death tropes to see if the characters fit:

  • Sacrificial Lamb: "In short — This Character Exists to Die."
  • Sacrificial Lion: "Their death provides no real change to the plot, only that we know the enemy is Dead Serious."
    • We knew that anyway.
  • Stuffed into the Fridge (trope page definition): "character who is targeted by an antagonist who has them killed off, abused, raped, incapacitated, de-powered, or brainwashed for the sole purpose of affecting another character, motivating them to take action."
    • It wasn't the "sole purpose".

So the Warriors Three are none of those tropes.

And most of the same can be said for Frigga, as well.

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Apr 29th 2020 at 11:42:48 AM

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#117282: Apr 29th 2020 at 10:49:02 AM

By strict definition, Stuffed into the Fridge is when a characters death is used as a consequence of the rivalry between the hero and villain, their death is for the express purpose of causing pain for the hero and ramping up the stakes of the plot. The character has little agency in the story or sense of having an emotional legacy. If the character's death is accidental, puts up a fight before dying or becomes The Lost Lenore, it's likely not a fridging.

Note there is nothing wrong with having a woman die in the story, as not everyone can be the hero, but we've started to get agitated with so many girlfriends and wives used for male pain that it's a sensitive subject.

In the case of Black Widow, she chose her fate and had to beat the shit out of the man for that right. I didn't feel like the movie as a whole was very well written, more just functional, and I think the writers even admitted that early drafts had Hawkeye make the sacrifice instead.

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#117283: Apr 29th 2020 at 10:57:01 AM

From what I’ve seen online there are two competing ideas of Stuffed in the Fridge as a concept, a broad one and a narrow one.

By the narrow (Watsonian) definition, fridging is when a villain kills or traumatizes a female character in order have an emotional impact on another character.

By the broad (Doylist) definition, fridging is when the writers/producers kills or traumatizes a female character in order have an emotional impact on another character.

Since fridging is fundamentally a trope about the decisions made by writers/producers and the relationship between sexism and those decisions, the second one strikes me as more valid. The core point isn’t why the female character dies in-universe, it’s whether the female character dies in service to their own story arc or someone else’s story arc.

Frigga’s death in TDW is a quite blatant fridging - her purpose in the story is to die in order to have an emotional impact on Thor and Loki and motivate them to work together.

Gamora’s death in Infinity War is a fridging - its purpose lies in its emotional impact on both Thanos and Quill.

Black Widow’s death is more borderline. Her death fits with her arc across the movies - her desire to make up for the wrong she did as an assassin, and her close friendship with Hawkeye that started when he chose to give her a second chance rather than kills her. Since the Snap, Hawkeye’s gone down a dark path, and Black Widow is now choosing to die to give him the same second chance to turn things around that he once gave her.

On the other hand, Black Widow’s always had a secondary role in the movies, so that arc is pretty understated. The narrative purpose of her death firs more with Sacrificial Lion - she’s dying because SOMEONE needs to die before the end of the movie or this won’t feel like the Big Finale, and she’s dying instead of Hawkeye because Hawkeye is the least prominent Avenger and killing him off would feel like a cop-out in the same way that Quicksilver’s death in AOU felt like a cop-out.

If we were looking at a gender-balanced cast and a gender-balanced set of preceding movies, I wouldn’t take issue with Black Widow’s death. But we’re not, not even remotely, so killing off one of the few female members of the team ( and the only female starting member), and doing it in the same place where they fridged a female character in the previous movie, comes across badly.

Edited by Galadriel on Apr 29th 2020 at 2:00:12 PM

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#117284: Apr 29th 2020 at 11:18:46 AM

I don't know if those are two competing definitions as much as a trope coined by criticism, and so comes with negative connotations much like Manic Pixie Dream Girl. If the term MacGuffin was mocking the idea we would have the same problem. If you integrate the trope with the criticism all we really have is complaints about mistreating female characters, which is not a trope and Stuffed into the Fridge can apply to platonic male friends.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#117285: Apr 29th 2020 at 11:37:50 AM

Strictly speaking, in terms of the comics, a sacrificial play seems like more of a Hawkeye move than a Widow move (though I admittedly haven’t really read many Black Widow comics).

Oh God! Natural light!
ChumlyX1995 Since: Jan, 2020
#117286: Apr 29th 2020 at 12:17:13 PM

I don’t know. Keep in mind the reason Natasha’s ledger is full of red in the comics is because she blew up a hospital to kill a target, and it was filled with innocents including children and babies.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#117287: Apr 29th 2020 at 12:52:12 PM

> I don’t know. Keep in mind the reason Natasha’s ledger is full of red in the comics is because she blew up a hospital to kill a target, and it was filled with innocents including children and babies.

Oh yeah,for good reasons that's not part of her character in the films,it would be very,very hard to make a character remotely likeable if they included stuff like that,like comics book characters do fucked up shit all the time,but that just strikes me as excessively dark,in the films she's an assassin from birth practically (I think,without doing a hasty Google)

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#117288: Apr 29th 2020 at 1:11:35 PM

I think that's also the danger of associating a character with a specific actor, Art Evolution in the comics mean we can put aside someone's behavior when they look different in the next issue but with a real persons consistent face you're reminded of everything they say and do.

TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#117289: Apr 29th 2020 at 1:49:50 PM

A Quarantine Watch Party on Daredevil was recently held and Charlie Cox addresses the alleged rumor that Daredevil would appear in Spider-Man 3.

If the Man Without Fear does appear, it won't be him in the costume...

Unless he's bluffing, which he probably isn't, then I guess that's the end of Daredevil as we knew him. sad

(Oof. Typing this made me realize if Kingpin shows up in the movies proper, it might not be Vincent D'Onofrio either. Uh-oh.)

Edited by TargetmasterJoe on Apr 29th 2020 at 4:55:03 AM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#117290: Apr 29th 2020 at 1:54:31 PM

Remember that until November 2020, Marvel Studios isn't allowed to write anything with Netflix's Daredevil in it, not even in the draft or pitching stage. Even if bringing Charlie Cox back was being whispered around the studio off the record, no one would be allowed to mention anything in public about it.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Apr 29th 2020 at 1:56:41 AM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#117291: Apr 29th 2020 at 1:55:58 PM

> it won't be him in the costume...

Ben Affleck again!?

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#117292: Apr 29th 2020 at 2:01:46 PM

[up][up] Yeah, I knew that Marvel Studios wouldn't be able to use Daredevil until November 2020 (which elevated my spirits a little when Spider-Man 3 got postponed to November 5, 2021).

But Cox saying outright that it'd be a different actor if Daredevil appears in that movie sort of clinches the thought.

I'd ask who should be the new Daredevil, but Charlie Cox was pretty much perfect, wasn't he? sad

Edited by TargetmasterJoe on Apr 29th 2020 at 5:16:30 AM

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#117293: Apr 29th 2020 at 2:55:13 PM

While Vincent was great, I'd have personally loved to see Michael Clarke Duncan resume the role in film. Unfortunately he obviously can't due to his passing away.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#117294: Apr 29th 2020 at 3:46:47 PM

I've always said it would be extremely far-fetched for the MCU to use Charlie Cox as Daredevil (or any of the other ones). From a brand perspective it makes little sense: they'd always be skirting a tightrope because the character would always be kind of Netflix DD but not really because they would obviously be unable to actually reference anything of his home show (in both character and history) without being sued.

This was just the nail in the coffin.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#117295: Apr 29th 2020 at 4:28:31 PM

...What if the time restriction was factored into the 5 year jump written into Endgame? Like Feige and others thinking "Just in case, let's write this contract and this film both around seemingly arbitrary dates a couple years in the future... And by the time it all comes together, networks can't stop me!" And then Disney Plus' launch and Coronavirus kinda forced his hand.

TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#117296: Apr 29th 2020 at 6:28:35 PM

[up][up] Oh shoot. You're right. The Netflix shows do allude to stuff from the MCU, but they were always grimmer than any of the MCU's movies...

It would probably have guys thinking "it's not the same" and tune people off. sad

Hey, can Michael Chiklis pull off The Kingpin or is age preventing him from that kind of role? (Assuming this means D'Onofrio!Kingpin is out of the question as well?)

Edited by TargetmasterJoe on Apr 29th 2020 at 9:41:48 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#117297: Apr 29th 2020 at 6:40:57 PM

[up] I believe he could.

I want them to bring Chiklis back as the Thing though. He was perfect in the role and has said he's open to returning.

Edited by Bullman on Apr 29th 2020 at 8:48:16 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#117298: Apr 29th 2020 at 7:20:20 PM

Speaking of Daredevil, I finally finished up season 2. Well, that was certainly a mixed bag. There's still plenty of good stuff (Frank Castle stole the damn show), but it's trying to juggle a lot more and ends up kind of a mess. Also, the Hand sucks. And from what I've gathered, they continue to be a blight on these shows until after Defenders. So that's just darling. All in all, not terrible but it's a blatant downgrade.

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#117299: Apr 29th 2020 at 7:25:58 PM

I actually like the Hand in Season 2 of Daredevil. Or at least I like Nobu and Gao (though I can't remember if she was in Season 2 or not). I haven't seen the Defenders or Iron Fist. So I can't comment there.

Edited by Bullman on Apr 29th 2020 at 9:27:13 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#117300: Apr 29th 2020 at 7:27:53 PM

Nobu and Gao were cool, but the organization on the whole was a lot smaller (in scale and mind) than I'd have hoped.


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