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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#117251: Apr 28th 2020 at 4:07:29 PM

The War Thor thing lasted a lot less time than I assumed and at least had everyone in universe be like “Volstagg this isn’t a good way to process your trauma”

Of course the major problem with the Thor Gorr Whisperr is that it was kept a secret for too long.

Thor Learns A Thing about worthiness by the time he gets Mjolnir back but since for a huge portion of the story after he loses Mjolnir we didn’t get to know what the whisper was (although it was very easily guessable) Thor spends this time spinning his wheels and getting drunk instead of using the situation to have some learning experiences

It feels like a lot of wasted time

Edit: for what it’s worth Odin was always this much of an ass. It’s just nobody ever contradicted him. Everyone just agreed he was wise and knew best even when he was looking the other way for Thor getting mind controlled into loving Lorelei because at least she’s an Asgardian and not a human

He’s always been an ass. Freyja and Thor have just started pushing back against it in recent years

Edited by Bocaj on Apr 28th 2020 at 7:12:52 AM

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#117252: Apr 28th 2020 at 5:25:12 PM

I'm responding to an issues on a previous page, but honestly while some linked to our wiki's page for Stuffed into the Fridge, I don't think anyone actually quoted the part of the description(s) at issue, which are important to the determination.

As for This Very Wiki's description:

...used more broadly, over time, to refer to any character who is targeted by an antagonist who has them killed off, abused, raped, incapacitated, de-powered, or brainwashed for the sole purpose of affecting another character, motivating them to take action.

But also, we must consider that our wiki is editable and not definitive. In fact, our page runs outright contrary to the original use of the term, which was intended to be Always Female. The trope has instead been broadened to a wide range of Sacrificial Lion and Sacrificial Lamb tropes, which seems again to be robbing the original female characters (and the coiner of the term) of their relevance. So we should also consult the actual page of the writer who coined the term.

These are superheroines who have been either depowered, raped, or cut up and stuck in the refrigerator. I know I missed a bunch. Some have been revived, even improved — although the question remains as to why they were thrown in the wood chipper in the first place.

More detail as to her explanation is provided on this page.

... it had been nagging me for a while that in mainstream comics, being a girl superhero meant inevitably being killed, maimed or depowered, it seemed.

THE LIST

So, really for my own edification and with malice towards none, I started making a list of the superchicks who had gone down in one of those ways (ignoring for the moment the wives/girlfriends of superheroes - a whole 'nother problem). I'm not hugely up on continuity issues, and I'm not a Marvel scholar by any means, so the first list had lots of errors and notable omissions. But as I said, it had just been me doodling, essentially. When I realized that it was actually harder to list major female heroes who HADN'T been sliced up somehow, I felt that I might be on to something a bit ... well, creepy.

...

This is not to say that some of these female characters haven't been improved in these stories; many are fond of Oracle, preferring her over her Batgirl persona, for example. Neither did I mean that some of these stories weren't effective, or moving. In fact, in a few cases, the death scene of a woman character provided her finest moment.

More often than not, though, there's a feeling of inconsequence, of afterthought, to these stories. I'm still kind of hoping to get a better understanding of the trend.

So going about it at either of those two definitions, there are specific elements for the trope:

Trope page definition:

  1. A character,
  2. Who suffers harm brought upon them,
  3. By the antagonist,
  4. For a narrative purpose relating to a third character

Gail Simone's definition:

  1. A female super
  2. hero(ine) in her own right,
  3. not functioning primarily as a love interest,
  4. Who meets a grim fate,
  5. Where such fates are disproportionately suffered by women,
  6. Where the character's fate is often, but not always, of little lasting consequence.

So, applying either of the above definitions to Gamora and Black Widow, were either or both Stuffed into the Fridge?

Gamora:

  • Wiki definition:
  1. Yes
  2. Yes
  3. Depends.
    • If you consider Thanos the protagonist of the film (the intended reading), then the cost of a sacrifice is the Stone putting up a barrier that he must overcome, therefore it is antagonizing him (in addition to the Avengers and other obstacles as he faces serving as antagonists to him)
    • If you consider the Avengers the protagonist of the film, Thanos is the antagonist.
  4. Depends
    • Yes, where Thanos is the third character (protagonist).
    • No, where the Avengers are the third character, as their actions would've occurred (and did) regardless of if Thanos got the Soul Stone or not. Even with Quill, Gamora's loss was not intended to motivate him to punch Thanos awake (though he did do that).

  • Simone definition:
  1. Yes
  2. Yes - she is an equal member of the guardians
  3. Yes - while she is Thanos' "beloved" daughter and Quill's love interest, that is not her primary role in the film or the MCU. In this film in particular her primary role is "heroic enemy of Thanos who knows best how to stop him".
  4. Yes
  5. Yes/Depends.
    • Yes, this specific fate is suffered exclusively by women.
    • Yes, the only original female Guardians and Avengers died permanent deaths in the entire MCU.
    • Depends, in the broader sense of the MCU. Male characters have also had permanent deaths: Tony and Heimdall also had lasting deaths. Vision may yet be revived. And, going back prior to this film, other male heroes have died (Yondu, Coulson in film, presumably Rhomann Dey). Yes, some female heroes have died tragically (The Ancient One, Frigga, presumably Nova Prime). But, with fewer female "heroes" to begin with, the deaths of the main two are more disproportionate.
  6. Depends (but this is not a required point anyway). The Snap being undone means that despite the 5 year time displacement, the overall change to the universe is low. We do not yet know what the loss of the original Gamora will do to the Guardians.

Black Widow:

  • Wiki definition:
  1. Yes
  2. Yes
  3. No - she chose to be the one to jump, and spared Clint from doing so. She had agency here, and the Time Heist did not have an antagonist.
  4. Depends - yes she helped other characters, but she also was acting on her own behalf, to give her own story some closure. Also her death was not necessary for the Time Heist because Hawkeye could've died instead.

  • Simone definition:
  1. Yes
  2. Yes - she is an equal member (and for the 5 year gap, Leader) of the remaining Avengers.
  3. Yes - at this point she did not have a love interest at all.
  4. Yes
  5. Yes/Depends, see above
  6. Depends (but this is not a required point anyway)
    • Depends on how you view consequences. Retrieving the Stone happened as a result of her death, but it would've happened anyway, as Hawkeye was also willing to die.
    • Yes in that they didn't have a second funeral for her, so the "consequence" of her dying was that Professor Hulk got angry for a little bit, the male founding 5 Avengers had a talk, and Clint and Natasha had a talk.

So now that we've examined the elements, were either Gamora or Black Widow Stuffed into the Fridge?

  • Gamora: Yes, under both the Wiki and original definitions
  • Black Widow: not under the wiki definition, but yes under the original definition.

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Apr 28th 2020 at 7:29:23 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#117253: Apr 28th 2020 at 5:27:11 PM

Sorry to step in here, but that feels a lot like the Mary Sue debate: designed so that any death of a female character could be judged as fridging.

Edited by Fighteer on Apr 28th 2020 at 8:27:27 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#117254: Apr 28th 2020 at 5:30:57 PM

It explicitly isn't, under either definition. Did you read the spelled out elements? Specifically the Simone elements 2, 3, 5, and (optional) 6? Or wiki elements 3 and 4?

And if your concern is that this wiki's definition makes the term overbroad, yes, that is what I said, the wiki definition changes the trope.

And if your concern is that "a lot of female characters in fiction die that way", then yes, that was Gail Simone's observation too.

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Apr 28th 2020 at 7:35:52 AM

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#117255: Apr 28th 2020 at 5:40:21 PM

Well it included things like Thor becoming a depressed drunk...

Ah, so that's where Avengers: Endgame got Fat Thor from. Gotcha.

ChumlyX1995 Since: Jan, 2020
#117256: Apr 28th 2020 at 6:00:42 PM

I’d say Gamora was. Yes. And purposely so, since Thanos is a villain protagonist. He has a twisted view of “love.”

Black Widow was not. In fact, her death was done specifically to have juxtaposition with Gamora’s death. And show the sacrifice with the heroine’s agency. If you look at each of the 6 main Avengers of character journeys, I’d even say for her storyline across films, it was almost foreshadowed.

Technically speaking, both Heimdall and Loki were fridged for Thor.

Edited by ChumlyX1995 on Apr 28th 2020 at 6:02:26 AM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#117257: Apr 28th 2020 at 6:19:10 PM

One important note about the Women in Refrigerators trope is that the victim's death is quickly forgotten about. That it serves as just a sudden dramatic punctuation and then doesn't really matter after that. This is why Simone herself argued that Vanessa's death in Deadpool 2 doesn't count, because coping with her loss serves as Wade's driving motivation throughout the entire story.

One could argue that, from this perspective, Gamora's death kinda avoids this by continuing to have an emotionally changing effect on Thanos, Quill, Nebula, and Alternate-Timeline-Gamora during the rest of Infinity War and in Endgame. Inversely, though, Black Widow's death definitely invokes the "quickly forgotten" cliche. As noted earlier, her death is basically an obligatory Third-Act-Speedbump and then doesn't affect any of the characters's actions after that. The most she gets afterward is a token mention of Clint mourning her which, coming after Tony's massive funeral, feels perfunctory.

Technically speaking, both Heimdall and Loki were fridged for Thor.

I would say, no; it definitely plays a role in Thor's actions in Infinity War that seeing them die causes him to become single-mindedly fixated on personally humiliating Thanos, to the point of near-Death Seeker, as he discusses with Rocket later in the film.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Apr 28th 2020 at 6:25:08 AM

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#117258: Apr 28th 2020 at 6:34:27 PM

I'm just glad we're talking about Heimdall's sacrifice, considering how often it gets overshadowed by Loki's in some fans' eyes. Heimdall was:

  • The first named character to die
  • The only reason Earth had any warning
  • The first shown reason Thor wanted to kill Thanos (and why he said "You're going to die for that")
  • Defiant to the End

While it would've been interesting to see him fight Iron Man in Endgame, I'm glad they went in a different direction because it would've been odd for the story. Would've been interesting to know how he knew to send Hulk directly to the Sanctum Santorum (as opposed to Avengers Tower, the upstate NY facility, wherever Cap was, etc.). I'd like to believe there was a connection between the guardian of Asguard and the Sorceror Supreme of Earth.

But Heimdall was a badass. And did much of value (unlike Loki...).

(But also neither Heimdall nor Loki were fridged even under this wiki's definition. Even if you consider Thanos the antagonist, their deaths didn't serve the narrative purpose of making Thor do anything he wasn't already going to try to do otherwise)

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Apr 28th 2020 at 8:46:00 AM

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#117259: Apr 28th 2020 at 7:07:47 PM

Heimdall might not be a fridging, but he is a case of Black Dude Dies First.

... and that's a-my a cue to leave.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
ChumlyX1995 Since: Jan, 2020
#117261: Apr 28th 2020 at 8:05:10 PM

Hulk also mentioned Natasha’s death, right before he sent Steve back in time. And mentioned that he tried to bring her back when he brought all the snapped victims back.

Edited by ChumlyX1995 on Apr 28th 2020 at 8:06:32 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#117263: Apr 28th 2020 at 8:16:15 PM

Like I said, those are perfunctory. Lipservice. Did her death actually affect the other characters's actions? In short, not at all. Gamora dying caused Quill to lose it, Nebula to join the Guardians in her stead, and Alternate Universe Gamora to rebel against Thanos. Natasha dying caused the Avengers to be sad for like 2 minutes and then proceed with what they were already going to do. If the movie were cut such that all mentions that Nat died were removed, the rest of the film would still make sense, which is what Simone described in the prior link as a key factor of fridging.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Apr 28th 2020 at 8:20:08 AM

ChumlyX1995 Since: Jan, 2020
#117264: Apr 28th 2020 at 8:24:12 PM

I’d say it was the conclusion of her own MCU arc.

She even mentioned why she was doing what she was about to do, to Hawkeye.

Edited by ChumlyX1995 on Apr 28th 2020 at 9:38:53 AM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#117265: Apr 28th 2020 at 8:27:04 PM

Cue two minutes of being kinda sad about Hawkeye. tongue

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#117266: Apr 28th 2020 at 8:54:16 PM

Personally I think the death of Natasha is much more about her character arc than other people's. It brings her character arc to a close, sacrificing herself for her True Companions and true family, redeeming the whole "red in her ledger" thing and e.t.c.

It's just her ending involved death.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#117267: Apr 28th 2020 at 10:00:42 PM

I'm not happy about Natasha's death nor do I think it was done especially well but I don't consider it to be fridging. She had agency and it was a natural and organic conclusion of her character development and arc even if it's not the one I would have chosen for her. The characters not mourning for her as much as I think she deserved doesn't mean it didn't happen. Widow's death is only a problem as part of the aggregate trend of female characters' fates, but as a character in isolation I think it was at least more narratively sound than Heimdall and Loki's deaths, and both more and less frustrating than Gamora's.

[up] I do think a lot of the issue, at least in my case, boils down to "between Natasha and Hawkeye they chose to kill off the one who was more interesting and had more potential for post-story expansion". For me, calling it a fridging would feel like I was misappropriating social justice lingo as part of a post-hoc attempt to legitimize a more subjective form of disappointment at a bad story choice, much like accusing a subjectively annoying character abusive or pedophilic in order to justify why they should be punished or removed.

Edited by AlleyOop on Apr 28th 2020 at 1:08:41 PM

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#117268: Apr 28th 2020 at 10:29:58 PM

Could we not get bring back "you're calling it a fridging just because you don't like it"?

Edited by fredhot16 on Apr 28th 2020 at 10:36:24 AM

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#117269: Apr 28th 2020 at 10:40:08 PM

I can't stand it but I don't consider it fridging.

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#117270: Apr 28th 2020 at 10:43:19 PM

Whatever, but the idea that people who see it as a fridging are saying so just because they dislike the scene has already been played out in the last couple of pages and it's just so aggravating to hear.

Like, that was the goddamn page-topper in the last page. Can we just talk without coming up with ulterior motives for people we disagree with?

Edited by fredhot16 on Apr 28th 2020 at 10:47:33 AM

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#117271: Apr 28th 2020 at 10:48:06 PM

That wasn't even my point, I was very clear about explaining why I personally can't call it fridging and never made any pretense to suggest otherwise.

Edited by AlleyOop on Apr 28th 2020 at 1:51:46 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#117272: Apr 28th 2020 at 10:52:05 PM

Have the dates for the Marvel shows changed?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Teemo from Nottingham, UK (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: In another castle
#117273: Apr 29th 2020 at 12:20:29 AM

If you mean shows not named Agents of S.H.E.I.L.D., I have no idea.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#117275: Apr 29th 2020 at 2:02:17 AM

I consider Vision to be one really fridged. He's not much more than a Living MacGuffin during Infinity War and is only referenced once, and indirectly as that, by Wanda in Endgame.

I wonder if Wanda's appearance in Doctor Strange 2 means she will begin to reach the power level she has in the comics.

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.

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