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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#117201: Apr 28th 2020 at 12:09:05 PM

Skimmed/skipped last page.

  1. Gamora's case was an almost literal interpretation of fridging, in that Thanos sacrificed a female character for no other reason than to further his own development and story. And as the main character of Infinity War, it's even worse in that regard.
  2. I don't count Natasha's sacrifice as fridging, even though the pther surviving characters decided to live and fight on in part for her (and Vision, in Wanda's case).
  3. windleopard, I do consider Black Widow's introductory scene in the first Avengers movie to be kinda fanservicey, or at the very least titillating (no pun intended), tied to a chair but in a way that allowed for some jiggle (that I didn't remember, but did upon the scene being referenced for another reason in a trivia video).

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Apr 28th 2020 at 2:12:20 PM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#117202: Apr 28th 2020 at 12:10:12 PM

[up][up]I believe that argument came up at the time, too. Nobody really expected the Snapped characters not to return. The films do a very good job of setting apart the "important" deaths from the obviously trivial ones. Then they go back on it by restoring Gamora. So I don't know what message we're supposed to take away from them...

[up] Umm... I'm pretty sure that the protagonist killing their own loved one voluntarily is not an example of Fridging by definition.

Edited by Fighteer on Apr 28th 2020 at 3:11:05 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#117203: Apr 28th 2020 at 12:12:53 PM

I'm assuming they had Endgame planned out before they filmed Infinity War, meaning when they killed Gamora off, they already knew they were going to bring her Back from the Dead. Does it still count as Stuffed in the Fridge, then?

That's it's not the same Gamora, and more of a Replacement Goldfish, muddles this somewhat.

I'm pretty sure that the protagonist killing their own loved one voluntarily is not an example of Fridging by definition.

I'm not sure why that's discounts it as fridging at all. If anything, it kind of reinforces that the character is simply being murdered to facilitate another character's motivations.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 28th 2020 at 12:18:18 PM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#117204: Apr 28th 2020 at 12:12:56 PM

[up][up]Also, it ignores that a sacrifice was needed to get the Soul Stone, you can't just remove that from the picture.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Apr 28th 2020 at 12:13:10 PM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#117205: Apr 28th 2020 at 12:13:23 PM

That Widow’s death serves as cheap motivation is made all the more clear by how almost nothing changes from it. The Avengers brood for one scene then proceed to do what they were always going to do. It’s a Darkest Hour but it feels obligatory, like a checklist of screenplay steps.

A good Darkest Hour is about putting the hero(es) at their lowest to refine them into their best. Ideally they are motivated to do something risky they would otherwise never do. Moana learns to stop clinging to Maui and the Ocean for instruction and to save her people herself. Max and Furiosa choose to stop chasing dreams and return to fix what’s real and broken. The Avengers, initially resistant to working together, decide to unite for the sake of avenging Coulson. Here the Avengers decide to... do what they were already going to do, which is to undo the Snap. So Nat’s death feels less like a motivating spur and more likely merely a speedbump.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#117206: Apr 28th 2020 at 12:16:39 PM

Also, it ignores that a sacrifice was needed to get the Soul Stone, you can't just remove that from the picture.

The writers specifically made it that way, so it both could be removed and is kind of part of the issue - they're the ones who chose to make Vormir "the fridging planet," where characters go to die for the motivation of other characters.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 28th 2020 at 12:21:31 PM

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#117207: Apr 28th 2020 at 12:16:40 PM

[up][up][up][up] I wouldn't call her a Replacement Goldfish. She's the same Gamora, just from a few years in the past.

Edited by RavenWilder on Apr 28th 2020 at 12:17:03 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#117208: Apr 28th 2020 at 12:18:41 PM

If she's not the Gamora that actually went through the story, and whose death the other characters were reacting to, than she wasn't resurrected. She has no context for the others beyond what they tell her, and likewise they can only project what they remember of their Gamora onto her.

Replacement Goldfish might be a bit reductive, but it's definitely not the case the character was killed and simply brought back, in the same way as Spidey and the others.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 28th 2020 at 12:19:25 PM

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#117209: Apr 28th 2020 at 12:19:07 PM

[up][up]But she's also a Gamora who might as well be a complete stranger to them, coming from 2014, before she met them (I'm assuming). So, yeah.

Edited by fredhot16 on Apr 28th 2020 at 12:19:45 PM

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#117210: Apr 28th 2020 at 12:21:15 PM

The writers specifically made it that way, so it both could be removed and is kind of part of the issue - they're the ones who chose to make Vormir "the fridging planet," where characters go to die for the motivation of other characters.

No, you can't. Once you remove the Soul Stone, you're talking about a hypothetical alternate universe version of the movie where the Soul Stone didn't require a sacrifice but those characters still died for some reason, in which I would agree, Gamora dying in that context would totally be fridging, but I'm not interested in debating hypotheticals.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#117211: Apr 28th 2020 at 12:21:39 PM

I don't usually like to quote Cinemasins, especially with superhero stuff, but they did make an actually good point in that there isn't really any reason given in the plot for the Soul Stone to be so special, nor does it do anything particularly exceptional for all the preamble, so that level of significance isn't baked in or essential. It's just there, for the reason of being there.

Once you remove the Soul Stone, you're talking about a hypothetical alternate universe version of the movie where the Soul Stone didn't require a sacrifice

You mean, "a hypothetical in which they didn't fridge the characters?"

but those characters still died for some reason

Wait, why does Gamora have to die, even in the hypothetical where the plot device they wrote in to kill her was removed?

Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 28th 2020 at 12:23:11 PM

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#117212: Apr 28th 2020 at 12:22:44 PM

Except almost all her interactions, post-revival, are with Nebula, who did know Gamora at this stage in her life.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#117214: Apr 28th 2020 at 12:23:20 PM

[up][up][up]And? It doesn't change that it was there. You can't change the fact that the Soul Stone needed a sacrifice.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Apr 28th 2020 at 12:23:43 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#117215: Apr 28th 2020 at 12:24:19 PM

But who is still attempting to engage her and mold her into being like the Gamora she knew, and whose interactions with her are based around wanting the sister she lost back even though she doesn't have her yet.

You can't change the fact that the Soul Stone needed a sacrifice.

Because?

As I just pointed out, the sacrifice itself doesn't really do anything to the plot beyond provide the scene in which someone is sacrificed. If removed, all it does is mean Thanos got the stone differently.

The only actually tangible change I can think of is that Quill doesn't go ballistic on Thanos and so they need another reason to fail.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 28th 2020 at 12:26:08 PM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#117216: Apr 28th 2020 at 12:25:31 PM

Because it's a movie that exists which you have no creative control over. The sacrifice is plot-relevant because it is needed for the Soul Stone, therefore it is not a fridging.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Apr 28th 2020 at 12:29:36 PM

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#117217: Apr 28th 2020 at 12:26:32 PM

[up]Don't want to be rude but want to try again? "Because the movie said so" is not the best debate tactic at this point. Or ever, actually.

Edited by fredhot16 on Apr 28th 2020 at 12:28:04 PM

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#117218: Apr 28th 2020 at 12:26:35 PM

And from Gamora's perspective, it's like Nebula suddenly went through several years worth of character development overnight, but I doubt she thinks of this Nebula as not really being her sister.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#117219: Apr 28th 2020 at 12:26:36 PM

[up][up][up] So we're gravitating to "if you don't like it, deal with it? You have no control over it?" now, are we?

Are you still just trying to turn off the conversation?

Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 28th 2020 at 12:30:11 PM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#117220: Apr 28th 2020 at 12:26:49 PM

All things in stories happen because the writers decided to do it that way. This is axiomatic. If we can't agree on that, then we're kind of in an impasse.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#117221: Apr 28th 2020 at 12:27:29 PM

I don't think anyone ever disputed that..?

Heck, the primary point here is:

All things in stories happen because the writers decided to do it that way...

... hence, the things they write are accountable and subject to criticism.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 28th 2020 at 12:33:29 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#117222: Apr 28th 2020 at 12:28:26 PM

I'm more looking forward to new Gamora because of the potential comedy with the character being a violent assassin compared to modern Gamora who sorta suffered being the team stick in the mud.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#117223: Apr 28th 2020 at 12:28:30 PM

I'm not saying "If you don't like it, shut up", I'm saying "you not liking it has no effect on whether it will be considered for the purposes of this conversation", and I personally refuse to have this conversation if people are just going to ignore the Soul Stone because they don't like it.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#117224: Apr 28th 2020 at 12:29:44 PM

And again, you're trying to claim that people are only disagreeing with you because they dislike the thing you happen to like.

I've already asked you to cut out the strawmanning before.

If you don't want to have this conversation (which, I'll note, you started) you're free to. As I said before, it's okay to disagree.

I'm more looking forward to new Gamora because of the potential comedy with the character being a violent assassin compared to modern Gamora who sorta suffered being the team stick in the mud.

I'm holding out until it's clear the next Guardians movie isn't going to be all about Quill thinking he can win her back, with a love triangle and whatever.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 28th 2020 at 12:32:13 PM

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#117225: Apr 28th 2020 at 12:30:12 PM

[up][up]Sorry, but go ahead? You seem a little, how do I put it, it feels like this might not go anywhere better with your responses.

Edited by fredhot16 on Apr 28th 2020 at 12:32:49 PM

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.

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