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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
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I believe that argument came up at the time, too. Nobody really expected the Snapped characters not to return. The films do a very good job of setting apart the "important" deaths from the obviously trivial ones. Then they go back on it by restoring Gamora. So I don't know what message we're supposed to take away from them...
Umm... I'm pretty sure that the protagonist killing their own loved one voluntarily is not an example of Fridging by definition.
Edited by Fighteer on Apr 28th 2020 at 3:11:05 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"That's it's not the same Gamora, and more of a Replacement Goldfish, muddles this somewhat.
I'm not sure why that's discounts it as fridging at all. If anything, it kind of reinforces that the character is simply being murdered to facilitate another character's motivations.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 28th 2020 at 12:18:18 PM
That Widow’s death serves as cheap motivation is made all the more clear by how almost nothing changes from it. The Avengers brood for one scene then proceed to do what they were always going to do. It’s a Darkest Hour but it feels obligatory, like a checklist of screenplay steps.
A good Darkest Hour is about putting the hero(es) at their lowest to refine them into their best. Ideally they are motivated to do something risky they would otherwise never do. Moana learns to stop clinging to Maui and the Ocean for instruction and to save her people herself. Max and Furiosa choose to stop chasing dreams and return to fix what’s real and broken. The Avengers, initially resistant to working together, decide to unite for the sake of avenging Coulson. Here the Avengers decide to... do what they were already going to do, which is to undo the Snap. So Nat’s death feels less like a motivating spur and more likely merely a speedbump.
The writers specifically made it that way, so it both could be removed and is kind of part of the issue - they're the ones who chose to make Vormir "the fridging planet," where characters go to die for the motivation of other characters.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 28th 2020 at 12:21:31 PM
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I wouldn't call her a Replacement Goldfish. She's the same Gamora, just from a few years in the past.
Edited by RavenWilder on Apr 28th 2020 at 12:17:03 PM
If she's not the Gamora that actually went through the story, and whose death the other characters were reacting to, than she wasn't resurrected. She has no context for the others beyond what they tell her, and likewise they can only project what they remember of their Gamora onto her.
Replacement Goldfish might be a bit reductive, but it's definitely not the case the character was killed and simply brought back, in the same way as Spidey and the others.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 28th 2020 at 12:19:25 PM
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But she's also a Gamora who might as well be a complete stranger to them, coming from 2014, before she met them (I'm assuming). So, yeah.
Edited by fredhot16 on Apr 28th 2020 at 12:19:45 PM
Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.The writers specifically made it that way, so it both could be removed and is kind of part of the issue - they're the ones who chose to make Vormir "the fridging planet," where characters go to die for the motivation of other characters.
No, you can't. Once you remove the Soul Stone, you're talking about a hypothetical alternate universe version of the movie where the Soul Stone didn't require a sacrifice but those characters still died for some reason, in which I would agree, Gamora dying in that context would totally be fridging, but I'm not interested in debating hypotheticals.
I don't usually like to quote Cinemasins, especially with superhero stuff, but they did make an actually good point in that there isn't really any reason given in the plot for the Soul Stone to be so special, nor does it do anything particularly exceptional for all the preamble, so that level of significance isn't baked in or essential. It's just there, for the reason of being there.
You mean, "a hypothetical in which they didn't fridge the characters?"
Wait, why does Gamora have to die, even in the hypothetical where the plot device they wrote in to kill her was removed?
Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 28th 2020 at 12:23:11 PM
But who is still attempting to engage her and mold her into being like the Gamora she knew, and whose interactions with her are based around wanting the sister she lost back even though she doesn't have her yet.
Because?
As I just pointed out, the sacrifice itself doesn't really do anything to the plot beyond provide the scene in which someone is sacrificed. If removed, all it does is mean Thanos got the stone differently.
The only actually tangible change I can think of is that Quill doesn't go ballistic on Thanos and so they need another reason to fail.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 28th 2020 at 12:26:08 PM
Don't want to be rude but want to try again? "Because the movie said so" is not the best debate tactic at this point. Or ever, actually.
Edited by fredhot16 on Apr 28th 2020 at 12:28:04 PM
Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.All things in stories happen because the writers decided to do it that way. This is axiomatic. If we can't agree on that, then we're kind of in an impasse.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"And again, you're trying to claim that people are only disagreeing with you because they dislike the thing you happen to like.
I've already asked you to cut out the strawmanning before.
If you don't want to have this conversation (which, I'll note, you started) you're free to. As I said before, it's okay to disagree.
I'm holding out until it's clear the next Guardians movie isn't going to be all about Quill thinking he can win her back, with a love triangle and whatever.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 28th 2020 at 12:32:13 PM
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Sorry, but go ahead? You seem a little, how do I put it, it feels like this might not go anywhere better with your responses.
Edited by fredhot16 on Apr 28th 2020 at 12:32:49 PM
Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.

Skimmed/skipped last page.
Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Apr 28th 2020 at 2:12:20 PM