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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
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The idea that "the threat is transparently manufactured to kill a character for cheap dramatic value" is just purely subjective and I disagree. I felt the Vormir scenes were beautiful, tragic, and powerful in both films.
Also, you're just wrong that a Heroic Sacrifice counts as fridging "if I didn't like it".
Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Apr 28th 2020 at 10:53:15 AM
Because you didn't say anything to objectively argue that the scene that contains a Heroic Sacrifice actually counts as a fridging, you just said your subjective opinions that the scene is bad.
I'm not saying it's without flaws, I'm not even talking about the quality.
Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Apr 28th 2020 at 10:57:00 AM
You disagreeing with what I said and you pretending I said something completely different don't really track - the latter is still fallacious.
Even if you don't think my reasons for criticizing the idea are true, you still completely invented the idea that I'm only criticizing it because I didn't like it.
It's definitely not purely subjective, given that everything in a script is put there for a reason.
It'd argue it's not even largely subjective, given the abruptness of the scene, the fact that it doesn't really connect to either Widow nor Hawkeye's arcs, and the fact that it's a recursion of a scene that was - as well - specifically there to remove a character from the plot in order to cause pain in the others.
Since your point has pretty much entirely been in the realm of whether the scene is liked or disliked, to turn that back around: you liking a scene doesn't mean it's without flaws.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 28th 2020 at 10:58:25 AM
I'm not saying it's without flaws. Me liking the scene has nothing to do with this.
You have yet to give any factual evidence that the scene counts as getting Stuffed in the Fridge, and not a Heroic Sacrifice, as it is clearly written.
Then why make that your main point? You're the one who brought up that this is about whether we liked the scene or not.
People who criticize things you enjoy aren't invalid just because you happen to enjoy them, btw - that's the end result of the argument you tried.
Correction. I've yet to bring up any argument that it's a fridging that you happen to agree with. You're just conflating "I disagree" with "nothing you says is backed up at all."
It is, by the way, okay to disagree.
But to go further, I'll also note that you haven't actually given any reason why my take on the scene is wrong besides "you're just saying that because you don't like it."
In fact, the very idea that Heroic Sacrifice and Fridging are incompatible concepts (such that the scene has to be one and not the other) is kind of odd, given that nothing about either is mutually exclusive. Lots of fridgings are framed as sacrifices.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 28th 2020 at 11:05:31 AM
It's not about whether I like the scene, and I'm not the one who made it that. You did, when you said this:
"~A Heroic Sacrifice~ counts ~as Stuffed into the Fridge~ if it is 'transparently manufactured' {opinion about how well it was conceived} — for 'cheap dramatic value' {opinion about how well it was handled}, then the actual death is given a 'single scene of the other characters emoting' {opinion about whether that scene was sufficient} for it before being 'reduced to lip service' {opinion about how well it was handled after that} for the rest of the film."
All of that is subjective. None of that is a valid argument for why an example of one trope should count as a different trope.
Stuffed in the Fridge is about removing a character's agency. She literally fights to jump off that cliff.
Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Apr 28th 2020 at 11:10:09 AM
Stuffed in the Fridge is not specifically about removing character agency - at least, it doesn't specifically have to be completely without agency in the moment of death. The most classical examples from decades ago were mostly along that tract (the name of the trope was coined in an infamous example of a female character being abruptly killed offscreen), but it's hardly the only means in which that concept is recognized and criticized, and trying to oversimplify the term just removes what makes it such an important thing to remember in the first place.
Stuffed in the fridge is about devaluing characters. About taking a character, regardless of their prior arc or aspirations, and reducing them to temporary emotional impact. The moment itself can have agency, but in the scope of the story it takes the character and removes them in favor of getting a temporary emotional reaction out of the other characters and the audience.
It can be fixed by having the death itself be part of the character's arc (which, as the scene is a Shocking Swerve, it does not do) or having the loss be a major aspect of the writing moving forward (which the movie also does not do, beyond the immediate scene afterward).
Even if that were true, none of that translates to "actually, I just don't like the scene." You're still trying to shoehorn that specific opinion and basis onto what I'm saying without any actual basis.
Really, this is starting to feel a lot like "everything that disagrees with what I like is just an opinion, and also a wrong opinion!"
I've been humoring that so far, but you really ought to cut it out. As I mentioned before, the most you try to make this into a matter of how much we like the scene, the more it's just going to feel like you're going after anyone who doesn't like the scene the way you do.
Again, "I disagree with that point" and "that point is invalid" do not mean the same thing.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 28th 2020 at 11:24:21 AM
I mean, usually when you state your opinion that something is bad, it means you don't like it, there's usually a causation there. But sure, I guess you didn't technically say that you didn't like it.
Stuffed in the Fridge applies when a character is stripped of agency and murdered for the in-universe purpose of making another character feel sad. If Thanos killed Gamora because he wanted to make Quil feel sad, that would count as a fridging. If Clint killed Natasha because he wanted to make the Avengers feel sad, that would count as a fridging.
Thanos killing Gamora to obtain the Soul Stone has an in-universe purpose beyond making the characters feel bad. Granted, he is taking away her agency, but her death has a reason that progresses the plot. Natasha making the choice to sacrifice herself and prevent Clint from killing himself to obtain the Soul Stone is even further from fridging, since Nat has full agency in the situation.
You can argue that the Soul Stone requiring a sacrifice is a writing contrivance to kill female characters in a way that avoids it being a fridging, but that doesn't change the fact that those female characters died in a way that does not fit the definition of a fridging. You can't just remove the Soul Stone from the equation, like if you said "well, if we lived in an alternate universe where the Soul Stone didn't require a sacrifice, it would count as a fridging" that would be a ridiculous hypothetical.
Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Apr 28th 2020 at 11:30:43 AM
It does not, however, mean your opinion on its quality comes from the fact that you don't like it.
Those are again two different things, though if that's where you're coming from I'm starting to understand.
The immediate problem here is that Stuffed in the Fridge is an out-of-universe criticism. Most deaths have a reason that advances the plot,
Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 28th 2020 at 11:30:08 AM
Further, since my edit got ninja'd:
The initial death that coined Stuffed in the Fridge had a reason: it got Green Lantern to get off his ass and fight Major Force. But that reason was triggered by devaluing the character in order to motivate others. The character of Kyle Raynor's girlfriend is brutally reduced to a motivation for him to fight the bad guy.
Likewise, Gamora is reduced to nothing but a thing whose loss motivates Thanos, Quill and (later) Nebula. Widow is reduced to a reason for Hawkeye to go back to his family. The very fact that the scene is specifically set up in order to kill of characters makes this ever more evident, as there's no inherent reason why the filmmakers had to do that with Vormir - it doesn't really add anything to the plot beyond that manpain and a few cool scenes with Red Skull.
It hits especially hard with Gamora, because the MCU has long had a problem with depicting her as an object of Quill's emotions.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 28th 2020 at 11:33:31 AM
False. Both those deaths are incredibly meaningful and significant. They do not "devalue" the characters; indeed, they make those characters the most important people in the films. They are deeply respectful to who and what they are. This is us applying an external sensibility to something that really does not apply in this situation. Not every death of a female character is a Fridging.
Heck, if you want to play the "Gamora's death provides Quill motivation" thing, it actually backfires, because it causes him to screw up the plan and the heroes to fail. It fails the literal definition of Fridging as well as the intent.
Edited by Fighteer on Apr 28th 2020 at 2:34:10 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"I never said they were. I'm arguing that these specific cases are, however.
Can you give a reason? All you did was say "no it's not" repeatedly.
Edit:
Whether it backfires or not isn't really relevant to it being the dominating factor in his motivation. If anything, it kind of strengthens it.
I can, however, buy the argument that the death is meant to set up The Millstone moment later in the plot.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 28th 2020 at 11:36:26 AM
I kind of think I did explain myself. What about it was unclear?
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"This goes back to what you said:
It can be fixed by having the death itself be part of the character's arc (which, as the scene is a Shocking Swerve, it does not do).
I felt those scenes did cap off those character arcs. Gamora's arc in the movie is based around hating Thanos and being completely convinced he's a heartless monster who cares nothing for her, so the reveal that he does is both a horrifying moment from Gamora's perspective and what allows him to succeed.
Black Widow's arc in Endgame is focused on her trying to fix the world at any cost and being unable to move on, so she makes the ultimate sacrifice in the name of fixing everything. The reason Clint wasn't allowed to sacrifice himself is that she was doing it selflessly to save everyone, while he was doing it selfishly because he was depressed and was looking for an excuse to die. He hadn't earned the right to do a Heroic Sacrifice, and he needed to live in order to redeem himself through his future actions.
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I think we're constantly ninja'ing each other's edits.
Now, see, isn't that better than saying "you just didn't like it, so you're invalid?"
I think a big problem here is that the scene isn't from Gamora's perspective, and doesn't particularly focus on her perspective. It must be a horrifying revelation from her perspective, but all the movie really shows is her saying "that's impossible" then getting dragged off the edge. She's not having her worldview shaken, she's the victim.
IIRC Word of God makes it clearer: the scene is about Thanos, and his sacrifice - and it's after that point that the plot starts more noticeably skewing towards writing him with protagonist traits.
While these are their in-universe reasons, it doesn't change the fact that the plot stops in order to force one of them to die in the first place.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 28th 2020 at 11:42:47 AM
Infinity War features Thanos as the protagonist, more or less. He's the one that goes through the character arc, up to and including the sacrifice as Test of Will. Endgame reverses it and puts the heroes back in the same role, choosing who/what to sacrifice in order to achieve their goals. In fact, a major beat of IW is that the heroes refuse to sacrifice someone, and that is what makes them vulnerable to someone who is willing to go farther.
If anything, bringing Gamora back in Endgame is what cheapens her death, even though they pull a character reset through time travel.
Gamora's character arc is about going from hating Thanos and herself, to hating Thanos and accepting herself, to discovering that Thanos actually loves her. That discovery is fatal. In her sacrifice, she passes that same arc on to Nebula.
When I saw Infinity War, I bawled like a baby when she died. I similarly freaked out at Black Widow's sacrifice. These were not "cheap deaths to advance the plot". They were the most meaningful (and shocking) on-screen deaths I've seen in any film for a long time. (Well, Natasha's was predictable once we knew she and Clint were going to Vormir, but the tension over who would die is still significant.)
Edited by Fighteer on Apr 28th 2020 at 2:51:56 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"I'd go as far as to say what they did with the Soul Stone is a good contender for the worst thing the movies have ever done. In practice it fucked over two characters with plenty of potential and good things going for them that deserved to be explored and realized, all in favor of two characters that largely just make me groan despite Marvel's attempts as making me feel otherwise. These two movies just really don't gel with me as much as I want them to.
Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)When I saw Infinity War, I bawled like a baby when she died. I similarly freaked out at Black Widow's sacrifice. These were not "cheap deaths to advance the plot". They were the most meaningful (and shocking) on-screen deaths I've seen in any film for a long time. (Well, Natasha's was predictable once we knew she and Clint were going to Vormir, but the tension over who would die is still significant.)
I'm not the type of person to cry at sad things, so I wasn't bawling, but my mouth was agape in shock and I thought it was handled beautifully.
Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Apr 28th 2020 at 11:49:44 AM
My general take on Endgame's use of Vormir is that they were kind of forced to deal with it thanks to Infinity War's use of it. Someone had to die, because Infinity War wrote it so that Vormir was a required death scene in order for the Soul Stone to work.
And that lessens the amount of distaste I have for it, at least in Endgame. It was inevitable for consistency's sake, they just should have handled it better.
I mean, that character turns out to actually be centered around Thanos' feelings for her is kind of the point. That's one of the key problems right there.
I never said it wasn't tragic.
I feel like I'm saying this a lot, but it being a sad scene and it being a good way to handle a character aren't really the same thing either.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 28th 2020 at 12:02:46 PM
I'm assuming they had Endgame planned out before they filmed Infinity War, meaning when they killed Gamora off, they already knew they were going to bring her Back from the Dead. Does it still count as Stuffed in the Fridge, then? And if it does, doesn't that mean around half the cast of Infinity War were fridged by the end?

It is when the threat is transparently manufactured to kill a character for cheap dramatic value, then the actual death is given a single scene of the other characters emoting for it before being reduced to lip service for the rest of the film.
The entire Vormir concept was an excuse to mid-movie fridge characters for low payoff - it was in Infinity War, and it was in Endgame. It's by far the weakest part of both.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 28th 2020 at 10:46:29 AM