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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

ChumlyX1995 Since: Jan, 2020
#117001: Apr 12th 2020 at 8:00:57 AM

Cloak & Dagger also has references to Luke Cage, like Misty Knight. And vice versus.

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#117002: Apr 12th 2020 at 8:48:55 AM

Daredevil and Quake went to the same orphanage, and his dad fought an AOS villain in the ring years earlier. The tv shows have always been reasonably good at referencing each other.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#117003: Apr 12th 2020 at 9:34:47 AM

AOS also had a news ticker about a "Hell's Kitchen gang war."

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#117004: Apr 12th 2020 at 9:39:24 AM

I think Tyrone outright mentioned Luke by name.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#117005: Apr 12th 2020 at 9:42:27 AM

I think for the most part there’s not many good times the movies could have referenced the shows in an organic unobtrusive way

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#117006: Apr 12th 2020 at 9:56:06 AM

Yeah. The only big one, for me, was Age of Ultron, because the plot of AOS that season tied directly into it (they provided the helicarrier Fury shows up with at the end). They didn't need to have anything major: Just have Patton Oswalt (who played a recurring agent on AOS) standing on the bridge next to Fury, and everyone on the bridge is wearing lanyards. Boom, done, no difficulty crossing over major actors with the different shooting schedules that movies and tv shows have to deal with, and only fans of AOS would even notice.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#117007: Apr 12th 2020 at 10:18:46 AM

Here's the thing: when determining what is canon, can you really rely on Word of God?

Yes, Kevin Feige says that the shows (Netflix and otherwise) are canon to the movies. But then, it's in the corporation's best interest for him to say that, because it encourages fans of the movies to check out the TV shows. If he came out and said the shows weren't canon to the movies, it could hurt their viewership. But does that mean the people making the movies are actually treating the shows as canon, or is this a case of Lying Creator?

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#117008: Apr 12th 2020 at 10:31:33 AM

Speaking for myself, I always assumed that Agent Carter was canon to the MCU because Peggy Carter and Howard Stark are characters in MCU movies and/or have an important impact on the MCU (ditto Faustus and Zola).

I feel like Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. wants to be canon with the MCU, but that the MCU has never reciprocated. Although I have to acknowledge that it isn't really that different from Agent Carter in terms of using comic plotlines that the MCU hasn't touched yet. Or even doing its own version of something the MCU does later on.

Conversely, the Netflix shows are very tenuously tied to the MCU, and only reference MCU events in a very perfunctory way. And I've never really felt that the MCU at all treated them as canonical, except to the extent that they use elements of the Marvel universe that other works also use. Specifically, Roxxon appears in multiple Marvel tv shows and movies and is doing something evil every time it appears.

I did consider Alfre Woodard and Mahershala Ali's double castings as evidence of the MCU decanonizing the Netflix shows. However, now that Gemma Chan has double roles in the MCU, I'm walking that back, since I would not want to argue that Marvel is decanonizing Captain Marvel.

Lastly, I'm not going to bring it up in-depth, since it's come up a lot (including in my previous posts), but it is difficult to square the Judas Bullets of Luke Cage with the aresenal being sold by Toombes and his gang in Spider-Man: Homecoming.

Edited by Hodor2 on Apr 12th 2020 at 12:32:25 PM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#117009: Apr 12th 2020 at 10:43:06 AM

Here's the thing: when determining what is canon, can you really rely on Word of God?
What are you relying on, then? Word of Fan? Because if you are saying that Word of God is unreliable, then the only thing you can rely is nothing at all. Which brings us back to saying "everything is canon until otherwise stated." And nobody has stated otherwise yet, so "everything is canon."

Lastly, I'm not going to bring it up in-depth, since it's come up a lot (including in my previous posts), but it is difficult to square the Judas Bullets of Luke Cage with the aresenal being sold by Toombes and his gang in Spider-Man: Homecoming.
Not really — the Judas Bullet was being sold to cops, while Toombs and his gang were selling to criminals and it's very much implied that they've been keeping a very low profile until recently.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#117010: Apr 12th 2020 at 10:49:00 AM

Honestly, it would be in Feige's best financial interests to declare the Netflix shows non-canon, since it could take money away from Netflix, one of Disney's current rivals, and make money for Disney+.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#117011: Apr 12th 2020 at 10:51:08 AM

[up] That would cause a shitstorm.

Especially for us Daredevil fans.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#117012: Apr 12th 2020 at 10:55:18 AM

It makes sense, unless there’s contract clauses that prevent them from out and out saying so.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#117013: Apr 12th 2020 at 11:01:02 AM

Because if you are saying that Word of God is unreliable, then the only thing you can rely is nothing at all.

Way too far a False Dichotomy. The Flip-Flop of God and Lying Creator pages demonstrate that there are plenty of times that authorities on works have claimed things based what’s convenient at the time rather than on canon.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#117014: Apr 12th 2020 at 11:09:55 AM

If you're not relying on Word of God you can simply rely on the text itself. And the text itself has the MCU movies themselves not acknowledging the existence of any tv show (except Agent Carter) in any way. They don't exist.

Even if they did, the deal with netflix is over. These shows have been exiled from continuity.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#117015: Apr 12th 2020 at 11:22:47 AM

As far as AoS goes, honestly, the show became much better after it stopped trying to tie into the movies so much and did it's own thing.

Though I still would like them to acknowledge the snap.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#117016: Apr 12th 2020 at 11:30:17 AM

Honestly, it would be in Feige's best financial interests to declare the Netflix shows non-canon, since it could take money away from Netflix
How? The people who have already seen the shows have alreaedy seen the shows. New fans might think they don't need to see them, but fans of those shows might think then that they don't need to see any of the MCU movies at all. So declaring them non-canon could end up hurting the MCU.

make money for Disney+.
It would definitely not make money for Disney+. This isn't a zero sum game. Disney+ makes money off of its own content, not off of telling people that Netflix's content doesn't matter.

If you're not relying on Word of God you can simply rely on the text itself. And the text itself has the MCU movies themselves not acknowledging the existence of any tv show (except Agent Carter) in any way. They don't exist.
The text of the shows acknowledges the films, however. And if the films are canon to the shows then the shows are canon to the films. The Avengers might not mention Daredevil, but Daredevil the show has mentioned the Avengers and the Battle of New York, the Hulk's rampage in Harlem, and so on.

"That just means there are two parallel MCU" — again, I've already pointed out the "two MCUs argument" and why it's bull. Why not simply say that everything is canon until otherwise stated? What is the harm?

These shows have been exiled from continuity.
Are you sure? Are you sure that, in a few years, Charlie Cox isn't going to show up as Daredevil again? Because he is apparently on very good terms with both Disney and Kevin Feige and I understand that they do want to bring Daredevil back, so...are you totally sure?

Hell, if they make another Daredevil show or have him appear again, the old show can still be in continuity and they don't even have to mention it since the events of the show will have taken place over five years ago.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#117017: Apr 12th 2020 at 11:36:35 AM

And if the films are canon to the shows then the shows are canon to the films

Also a False Dichotomy. There have been plenty of Expanded Universe and supplementary materials in other franchises where the relationship was strictly one way.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Apr 12th 2020 at 11:37:29 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#117018: Apr 12th 2020 at 11:42:12 AM

There have been plenty of Expanded Universe and supplementary materials in other franchises where the relationship was strictly one way.
And there have been plenty that haven't been. Most "Expanded Universe" stuff is generally meant to indicate novels and comics, by the way, not live action shows.

I go by the Star Trek principle: both movies and shows are canon to each other, despite any "continuity drift."

But you also haven't answered my question: what's the harm? Why not just say that everything is canon?

Edited by alliterator on Apr 12th 2020 at 11:47:15 AM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#117019: Apr 12th 2020 at 11:47:17 AM

Live-action media can still be EU. Halo got a number of live-action shows, but they’re still second fiddle to the games. The difference with Star Trek was that it had major protagonist characters shared across the movies and shows throughout their entire runs, while Agents, etc, at best got supporting characters for an episode or two.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Apr 12th 2020 at 11:51:02 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#117020: Apr 12th 2020 at 11:50:28 AM

The difference with Star Trek was that it had major protagonist characters shared across the movies and shows throughout their entire runs, while Agents, etc, at best got supporting characters for an episode or two.
I mean, Agent Coulson was the center of the entire show and he's been in how many films? And there were also Star Trek shows that began with entirely new characters (TNG, DS9, Voyager) which later showed up in films. (Well, TNG did. Most of the DS9 and Voyager characters were ignored, aside from one cameo from Janeway.) But it still took quite a while for them to show up. (Star Trek: Generations only happened after TNG was already over.)

Edited by alliterator on Apr 12th 2020 at 11:52:10 AM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#117021: Apr 12th 2020 at 11:52:05 AM

I’m going to just go ahead and consider everything but Inhumans canon

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#117022: Apr 12th 2020 at 11:52:21 AM

Coulson was never a protagonist in the movies. Star Trek shared protagonists like Kirk or Picard across its movies and shows.

But you also haven't answered my question: what's the harm? Why not just say that everything is canon?

The harm is building up unreasonable expectations that side media will influence the main media when it hardly ever will, and therefore getting needlessly mad when it doesn’t. The Black Widow movie probably won’t explain what happened to the 40s Black Widow at all, but I won’t be disappointed by that because I don’t expect it too. That’s what I’ve seen happen in prior fandoms time and time again.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Apr 12th 2020 at 11:54:28 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#117023: Apr 12th 2020 at 11:52:24 AM

I'm saying that the Netflix shows probably are canon because they have financial incentive to declare them non-canon, but haven't.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#117024: Apr 12th 2020 at 11:55:43 AM

The harm is building up unreasonable expectations that side media will influence the main media when it hardly ever will, and therefore getting needlessly mad when it doesn’t.
That sounds like an over-exaggeration.

In any case, having "unreasonable expectations" is kind of on par for any fandom, isn't it? You aren't going to stop people from wanting things by saying that the thing they want is non-canon. All you are doing is cutting off what could be a later area of connection.

When Disney took over Star Wars, they didn't immediately declare The Clone Wars as non-canon and then were able to later establish connections between that show, Rebels, and the films.

Edited by alliterator on Apr 12th 2020 at 11:59:58 AM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#117025: Apr 12th 2020 at 11:58:21 AM

All you are doing is cutting off what could be a later area of connection.

Check out this football, I bet THIS time Charlie Brown will finally kick it!

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Apr 12th 2020 at 3:49:31 AM


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