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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#116451: Mar 19th 2020 at 9:53:20 PM

Yeah, I recall hearing that Charlie Cox had a stipulation in his contract that allowed him to appear in an MCU movie should he desire. I believe he wanted to be in Civil War, but the production was already so far along that they couldn't slot him in.

If that's true, I'd assume the other Netflix actors have similar clauses in their contracts.

Edited by chasemaddigan on Mar 19th 2020 at 12:58:12 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#116452: Mar 19th 2020 at 10:37:52 PM

Netflix owns the shows, but not those specific characters. Hence why Marvel can still use the Netflix characters.

They do not. They own the shows, not the characters.

There's a specific difference there that I think you're missing.

The question was never if Marvel could use - say - Luke Cage. The question was whether Marvel can use the specific version of Luke Cage of the Netflix shows, the events within, etc.

If Netflix still owns those shows, then the answer is "no," because that's how rights ownership and licensing works. On the flipside, Netflix won't ever be able to make a new season of any of those shows without Marvel's permission, because the deal that birthed those shows is over.

So as I said, Marvel can absolutely use Luke or Daredevil or whoever, they just have to reintroduce them, and make it clear they're not the same as the ones that Netflix owns.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Mar 19th 2020 at 10:55:35 AM

FGHIK Since: Aug, 2013
#116453: Mar 19th 2020 at 10:58:04 PM

Do you have a source that is how it works? I could definitely believe that, but are we sure Marvel didn't specify in their licensing that they maintain the rights to use the Netflix version of the character if they so desire? I wouldn't be surprised if they did so, and I doubt Netflix would be against it as long as the licensing was favorable to them otherwise.

Edited by FGHIK on Mar 19th 2020 at 12:58:51 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#116454: Mar 19th 2020 at 11:09:14 PM

It's definitely possible that they had a special deal like that, but until they tell us so I wouldn't assume it first.

Honestly, that's just how the law works (Here's a briefer - the short of it is that a license is a temporary transfer of copyright, and while having that copyright anything made by the licenser is subject to its own rights under copyright while not having an effect on the larger property: it's weird and complicated). They would have had to have had special circumstances for it to be otherwise.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Mar 19th 2020 at 11:14:35 AM

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#116455: Mar 19th 2020 at 11:09:20 PM

They could still cast the same actors in the roles, if they wanted to. The problem would be that they couldn't reference anything that happened in the Netflix series (unless it happened in the comics first).

For instance, Jessica Jones and Patricia Walker being foster sisters? That was entirely an invention of Netflix. So if Netflix retains full ownership of that series, then any appearance by either of those characters in the MCU would not be allowed to reference or recreate that relationship.

Edited by RavenWilder on Mar 19th 2020 at 11:12:31 AM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#116456: Mar 19th 2020 at 11:10:31 PM

Gimme happy Patsy Walker who runs a super temp agency and may have a thing for She-Hulk.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Mar 19th 2020 at 11:10:58 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#116457: Mar 19th 2020 at 11:17:11 PM

Yeah... while I liked the arc Hellcat had in Jessica Jones (I enjoy both Face–Heel Turn and Heel–Face Turn stories), I wouldn't mind the character showing up with a clean slate.

Or Jessica herself, at that.

I still think the New Avengers is the best place the MCU could go from here, and we'll need Jess, Luke, and Danny for that. evil grin

Edited by KnownUnknown on Mar 19th 2020 at 11:17:24 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#116458: Mar 19th 2020 at 11:25:21 PM

The question was never if Marvel could use - say - Luke Cage. The question was whether Marvel can use the specific version of Luke Cage of the Netflix shows, the events within, etc.
I thought I was specific: they can use Netflix's Luke Cage, because Netflix doesn't own the character, they just own the show.

If Netflix still owns those shows, then the answer is "no," because that's how rights ownership and licensing works.
It really isn't. For one thing, the shows were a co-production between Netflix and Marvel, so Marvel actually co-owns the shows, too. For another, the show and the characters are two different things — Netflix can own the show without owning the characters.

So as I said, Marvel can absolutely use Luke or Daredevil or whoever, they just have to reintroduce them, and make it clear they're not the same as the ones that Netflix owns.
Marvel can absolutely introduce Netflix's Daredevil or Netflix's Luke Cage, because they own both of them. They just can't use any footage from the shows.

the short of it is that a license is a temporary transfer of copyright, and while having that copyright anything made by the licenser is subject to its own rights under copyright while not having an effect on the larger property: it's weird and complicated
This is correct — Marvel loaned the copyright of the characters to Netflix, but Netflix didn't create those characters. Even if you are talking about "the specific version of this character that appeared on the show," it doesn't work that way. The "license" is for those versions of the characters, therefore once that license is up, those versions of the characters revert back to Marvel. If that wasn't the case, then Netflix could use their versions of Daredevil and Luke Cage and Jessica Jones without Marvel's permission at all. But they can't.

Netflix doesn't own those versions of the characters. Netflix owns the footage that was made and that is all.

By the way, the production company for the Netflix Marvel shows was still Marvel Television and ABC Studios. Netflix was only the distributor. So they might not even own the footage — Marvel might actually be able to get it back, just like Disney did with Clone Wars Season 6.

Edited by alliterator on Mar 19th 2020 at 11:30:32 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#116459: Mar 19th 2020 at 11:29:55 PM

No, that isn't how the law works.

Disney doesn't own the rights to use any incarnation of anything they've licensed out in any way they choose. That's a very incorrect interpretation.

And there's a specific reason the law works that way: it's unfair to the licenser, and leaves them with no rights as to the thing they created.

Furthermore, literally every single issue with rights - film rights, tv rights, etc - would cease to exist if this was the case.

I thought I was specific: they can use Netflix's Luke Cage, because Netflix doesn't own the character, they just own the show.

Herein lies the primary logical problem: Netflix' Luke Cage is part an parcel with the show, as a character developed within that show's events and writing. There is a legal difference between Luke Cage, the franchised and trademarked character, and Luke Cage the licensed character he appears in X or Y adaptation.

The "license" is for those versions of the characters, therefore once that license is up, those versions of the characters revert back to Marvel.

This means that Marvel can then make their own incarnations of the character in the medium that was licensed (in this case, tv and film) without running afoul of the given license. This doesn't mean that Marvel retroactively gains ownership of everything that was made while the license was active.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Mar 19th 2020 at 11:38:31 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#116460: Mar 19th 2020 at 11:34:38 PM

If there's one thing I'm sad that we'll never get is that Jess & Peter once went to school together & Jess had a massive crush on Peter back then.

Cause Goddamn was Luke's reaction to that hilarious. [lol]

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#116461: Mar 19th 2020 at 11:37:14 PM

Disney doesn't own the rights to use any incarnation of anything they've licensed out in any way they choose. That's quite literally an incorrect interpretation.
Not all incarnations (it depends on the license), sure, but specific ones, yes. For example: Spider-Man (Japan) was a show made by Toei after Marvel licensed them the Spider-Man character. By your logic, Marvel wouldn't be able to use that specific character at all without Toei's permission...but they did in Spider-Verse. If Marvel didn't own the character, how could they use him? Because it depends on what the license says.

Or, to go with the opposite: in the '80s, Marvel made several licensed comics for Hasbro, such as Rom Spaceknight and The Micronauts. Once the license was over, those characters reverted back to Hasbro. Sure, Hasbro couldn't use the characters and concepts Marvel themselves created, but the main character Marvel had licensed? Absolutely. The IDW Rom comic had Rom be almost exactly like how he was in Marvel's comic, even looking exactly the same.

Furthermore, literally every single issue with rights - film rights, tv rights, etc - would cease to exist if this was the case.
Film and television rights are very different from character rights. Marvel can't use Spider-Man in film because they sold off the film rights, but they still own the character rights, hence why they can continue to publish Spider-Man comics.

There is a legal difference between Luke Cage, the franchised and trademarked character, and Luke Cage the licensed character he appears in X or Y adaptation.
There isn't, actually.

This means that Marvel can then make their own incarnations of the character in the medium that was licensed (in this case, tv and film) without running afoul of the given license.
See above, re: Spider-Man (Japan) for why you are wrong.

Edited by alliterator on Mar 19th 2020 at 11:40:31 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#116462: Mar 19th 2020 at 11:38:17 PM

This got ninja'd, but see, again, Disney only gaining the rights to all of the Spider-Man shows made under Fox after they literally purchased the entire company.

Not all incarnations (it depends on the license), sure, but specific ones, yes.

Okay, so how would you differentiate? Maybe through some sort of legal caveat?

As for Rom, as far as I'm aware the rights are still split. If Marvel is using him again, then Hasbro might have cut them a deal.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Mar 19th 2020 at 11:43:53 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#116463: Mar 19th 2020 at 11:40:29 PM

They'll prolly be less gritty.

Like Danny will prolly be allowed to be more wacky & not be so self-serious.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#116464: Mar 19th 2020 at 11:42:10 PM

Ah, okay.

ROM's story is owned by Marvel, but his design, and those of his supporting cast, are owned by Hasbro. So Marvel can use the story they wrote, but Hasbro kept the designs/names/etc they created.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Mar 19th 2020 at 11:43:16 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#116465: Mar 19th 2020 at 11:43:16 PM

As for Rom, as far as I'm aware Hasbro still owns the rights to him. If Marvel is using him again, then Hasbro might have cut them a deal.
No, Hasbro licensed the character to IDW, who is using the same character that Marvel used. Sure, they can't reference any of his history, but he looks and acts exactly the same.

I think this is where you are confusing people: if Marvel Studios make a Daredevil movie starring Charlie Cox as Matt Murdock looking and acting exactly the same as the Daredevil show, I consider that to be the same character, no matter if he is able to mention the previous show or not (not, since the show is owned by Netflix).

Looks the same, acts the same = same character.

But I think you believe that same character = has to reference the show itself. Which it can't.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#116466: Mar 19th 2020 at 11:43:40 PM

I just linked to an explanation of that situation.

To reiterate: Marvel owns the story they wrote for ROM. Hasbro owns the design, the names, and the overall concept, which they created.

This is because copyright law is always on the side of the creator, unless its work for hire. If you create something, it belongs to you. If it's under license, you don't own the property, but you do own what you created while under that license.

The alternative is mercenary and unfair on the half of the licensee, and thus unlawful.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Mar 19th 2020 at 11:45:41 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#116467: Mar 19th 2020 at 11:45:15 PM

And I just explained where the confusion lay.

But let me explain it again: if Marvel wanted to, they could hire Charlie Cox to play Matt Murdock/Daredevil and have him play it exactly like he did on Netflix, as long as he didn't reference any of the events that happened on Netflix. This is entirely legal and within Marvel's copyright (once the two years have passed).

This is because copyright law is always on the side of the creator, unless its work for hire.
That "unless it's work for hire" part is a large chunk of gray area. Considering most of Matt's personality in the show comes directly from the comics, I would consider the "creator" to be Marvel, not Netflix.

Edited by alliterator on Mar 19th 2020 at 11:47:51 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#116468: Mar 19th 2020 at 11:46:19 PM

I mean, that's more in line with what I've been saying than what you've been saying, but since we're now suddenly making the same point... okay?

Conversation over, then?

That "unless it's work for hire" part is a large chunk of gray area.

Not really. "Work for hire" is specified in contract, and is distinct from licensing. It has to be, otherwise you run into problems like how Sega lost the rights to the soundtracks to the first few Sonic games for a while.

[down] This.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Mar 19th 2020 at 11:53:09 AM

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#116469: Mar 19th 2020 at 11:47:30 PM

Marvel could have Luke Cage appear, being played by Mike Colter, and have him fight Diamondback, being played by Erik Harvey, but they could not have them be half-brothers, since that was an invention of the Netflix series and remains under their copyright.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#116470: Mar 19th 2020 at 11:50:05 PM

I mean, that's more in line with what I've been saying than what you've been saying, but since we're now suddenly making the same point... okay?
You stated the character was tied intrinsically to the show, however, while I stated that character was separate and based on appearance and personality, not tied to the show.

"Work for hire" is specified in contract, and is distinct from licensing.
It was not for a lot of early comic book writers and artists, hence the huge legal battles that occurred.

Edited by alliterator on Mar 19th 2020 at 11:51:15 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#116471: Mar 19th 2020 at 11:53:36 PM

Since I'm pretty sure the last page or so speaks for itself, and arguing about arguing is just going to derail, I'd like to repeat: conversation over?

Back onto the subject of what they could do, besides New Avengers - which I really, really want - I wouldn't mind a Luke Cage / Iron Fist film, especially now that Feige is off that "street level can't carry films" kick he was on years ago.

A hardboiled buddy crime superhero flick sounds fantastic.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Mar 19th 2020 at 11:55:55 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#116472: Mar 19th 2020 at 11:57:48 PM

We almost got that in Luke Cage Season 2. An entire movie of that — with sweet, sweet kung fu — would be awesome.

I also want a Daughters of the Dragon show or movie.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#116473: Mar 19th 2020 at 11:58:13 PM

There's also the concept of Luke & Jess' marriage with child.

Chances are had they gotten married in the Netflix-verse their marriage would prolly suffer a shit-ton of blows due to the setting's brutal nature while with the more relatively lighthearted MCU their marriage will most likely be less strenuous & more fun.

Edited by slimcoder on Mar 19th 2020 at 11:59:08 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#116474: Mar 19th 2020 at 11:58:39 PM

[up][up] Preferably with afros.

On everybody.

There's also the concept of Luke & Jess' marriage with child.

I think a Heroes for Hire movie series would be able to connect all of that, come to think of it.

Have everyone in H 4 H together in a single ensemble, with individual relationships that change over the course of their movies.

The big issue going forward is the same issue that hit Jessica in the comics, without writers specifically making sure she's got a strong voice in the stories she's in, she tends to be written as a supporter. But the general viewing audience would definitely see her as a protagonist after her big tv debut, which hopefully would inspire Marvel Studio to keep her as one going forward.

The last thing they want to do is just end Jessica's character with "Luke's wife." Having them as co-protagonists in an ensemble series would ensure they don't do that.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Mar 20th 2020 at 12:03:28 PM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#116475: Mar 20th 2020 at 12:02:53 AM

There's also the concept of Luke & Jess' marriage with child.
That one requires more set-up, I think. Jessica getting pregnant and getting together (finally) with Luke was the culmination of the entire series of Alias and finally getting over her trauma from the Purple Man. A bad guy which, thankfully, I think will no longer be used in the MCU — not just because David Tennant played him to perfection, but because his type of villainy (the rapey kind) doesn't fit in well with the lighter MCU movies.

Ooh, but the Purple Children might work. A movie where Jessica and Luke team up to save the Purple Man's Children from using their powers and end up having a kid of their own would actually be pretty good.


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