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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#115377: Feb 6th 2020 at 5:40:35 PM

The only reason I’m not sure about Mephisto is its very possible that he could show up in Black Panther 2, as Achebe, one of Panther’s archenemies and one of the more likely ones to be next big bad, is linked with to him.

Since the idea there is that the Big Bad is as devoted to Mephisto as T’Challa is to the Panther mythos, who he’s played by could potentially be a minefield.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#115378: Feb 6th 2020 at 6:06:46 PM

That just makes it even better, since it means we'll get even more Bruce Campbell.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#115379: Feb 6th 2020 at 6:15:58 PM

I'd prefer if Achebe only worships Mephisto (and thus he doesn't directly show up) as a Mythology Gag or doesn't have any connection to Mephisto at all, to be honest. Being in literal league with Satan has always kind of been a step too far for me, regarding Achebe.

Being in league with the US achieves basically the same concept without being that farfetched.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#115380: Feb 6th 2020 at 6:17:13 PM

I dunno, I’m just imagining the match up.

One hand you have the one African hero, whose belief system of choice is a heavily African themed ancestor system, and then we have the African villain, an evil demagogue whose belief of choice is centered around devotion to a literally demonic white guy.

I mean, if that’s the kind of theme Panther 2 wants to do, it makes sense, but like I said it’s tricky imagery.

Being in literal league with Satan has always kind of been a step too far for me, regarding Achebe

I could see it as a contrast to the Panther mythos. In the same way Killmonger has that spiritual scene where he speaks revenge and regret with his father that contrasts with T’Challa’s more healthy use of it.

Achebe’s a hot button in general, since he’s probably T’Challa’s biggest enemy that hasn’t already been used, by there’s a lot of things about him that would need... fine tuning. The whole thing about refugees is already a tricky subject.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Feb 6th 2020 at 6:24:31 AM

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#115381: Feb 6th 2020 at 6:23:51 PM

I mean, if that's the kind of theme Panther 2 wants to do, it makes sense, but I'd prefer it wasn't personally.

Lots of works have done the "this well-developed POC villain is working for a Complete Monster villain who is a white guy" thing, and historically it hasn't gone over well. In theory the idea is "white people are assholes and are the cause of problems" (which on the world stage isn't exactly wrong), but in practice it comes off as "once again, the POC is subordinate to the white guy. Because of course the white guy is in charge."

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#115382: Feb 6th 2020 at 6:25:15 PM

They fixed our boy M'baku. They can do the same for Achebe.

One Strip! One Strip!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#115383: Feb 6th 2020 at 6:29:06 PM

Lots of works have done the "this well-developed POC villain is working for a Complete Monster villain who is a white guy" thing, and historically it hasn't gone over well.

Another part of is that when it comes to stories about Africa, most of the few works that star POC cultures do this. Very few do stories where all parts of it - antagonistic and heroic, obvious and underlying - are within that culture.

Partly because I’m very aware of the perception that you can’t tell a story about Africans (or other marginalized groups like Native Americans) without it also being about white people, while I don’t actually mind movies that don’t avoid that, but the fact that they’re the default bugs me - and I enjoyed the fact that Black Panther kept everything centered on Wakanda and it’s aesthetic even given Killmonger’s upbringing.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Feb 6th 2020 at 6:32:54 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#115384: Feb 6th 2020 at 6:31:10 PM

Why would Mephisto be white? He's a demon. His race is demon.

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#115385: Feb 6th 2020 at 6:31:17 PM

Never mind.

Edited by Weirdguy149 on Feb 6th 2020 at 9:32:01 AM

The legend has returned.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#115386: Feb 6th 2020 at 6:35:49 PM

[up][up] Because characters are played by actors.

To note, I’m not making the case of “that means you can’t cast a white person here.” Just saying that the fact that Mephisto is effectively a diety that Achebe brainwashes a culture of people into following muddles things, and the historical implications would be very obvious. If it makes me - a very remote person - and instinctively cringe, and the movie itself doesn’t want to address that idea conceptually, it might not go over well.

I don’t think it can’t work, I’m just saying it’s a tricky as hell to navigate.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Feb 6th 2020 at 6:42:48 AM

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#115387: Feb 6th 2020 at 6:38:40 PM

Tricky as hell.

One option is to have Mephisto played by multiple actors. For Achabe he could be played by a black actor (having him played by the same actor as Achabe could be interesting). For a white guy he'd be played by a white actor.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#115388: Feb 6th 2020 at 6:39:58 PM

I did think of that. Like, give him a “many faces” sort of appeal. In any given scene he could be played by anybody of any race, gender or appearance, but unsettling mannerisms and actions give him away.

It would definitely play into him as a devil analogue.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#115389: Feb 6th 2020 at 6:40:25 PM

Achebe has had some problems (namely the refugee bit) but overall his concept as the US-backed tinpot dictator side of African leadership is one I quite like in contrast to Black Panther's more modern ways. Down to the fact he has the obviously US-evangelical-esque "Reverend" as a title. His contrast as this eccentric and wacky (but actually extremely dangerous) antagonist to BP being more stone-cold. It's Black Panther's Nelson Mandela-esque act vs Achebe by way of Doc Duvalier.

I actually like his concept moreso than his character.

He could always be secular or worship Set (to contrast with Panther's Bast).

Edited by Gaon on Feb 6th 2020 at 6:41:39 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#115390: Feb 6th 2020 at 6:41:28 PM

What about some biscuits? tongue

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#115391: Feb 6th 2020 at 6:53:39 PM

They could use the Mephisto at the end of long day loosens his belt or whatever the reason for the more monstery version I've seen around.

This guy

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#115392: Feb 6th 2020 at 7:11:52 PM

[up]That’s a picture.

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#115393: Feb 6th 2020 at 7:40:41 PM

I like the idea of having different actors play Mephisto in different films. Like you subconsciously choose the form that Mephisto appears to you in.

There could even be two Mephisto actors in Black Panther 2 itself; one for Achebe and another for a scene where T'Challa meets the demon himself.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#115394: Feb 6th 2020 at 7:58:20 PM

Lots of works have done the "this well-developed POC villain is working for a Complete Monster villain who is a white guy" thing, and historically it hasn't gone over well. In theory the idea is "white people are assholes and are the cause of problems" (which on the world stage isn't exactly wrong), but in practice it comes off as "once again, the POC is subordinate to the white guy. Because of course the white guy is in charge."

Wouldn't T'Challa and most of the heroic characters being black mitigate this problem somewhat? They aren't subordinate to Mephisto.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#115395: Feb 6th 2020 at 8:07:19 PM

I'm very uncomfortable with Achebe and the whole "evil refugee" plotline.

That being said, it does strike me that you could nicely introduce him as doing a warped version of the kind of missions we see Nakia involved in, coupled with spinning him as sort of like General Butt Naked. Basically, he'd be this originally random guy that develops a cult of personality around him that he leads as part of a liberation movement, and brainwashes child soldiers and burns villages. That kind of thing.

I do realize as I'm typing that this falls into a similar The Complainer Is Always Wrong issue as has been criticized with Killmonger. Maybe it could be avoided by contrasting him with Killmonger and having him not care at all about any cause and be amused by the bloodshed and destruction. Sort of like Ali Al-Sachez of Gundam 00 and how in his backstory, he moonlighted as a Bin Laden-like figure.

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#115396: Feb 6th 2020 at 8:13:08 PM

Achebe doesn't have to be subservient to Mephisto. They could use a different entity or deity that would better tie into African cultures.

Plus, I think having a literal demon be the Big Bad of a Black Panther sequel might be a bit out of place given the tone of the first film. Not that the film didn't have spiritual moments, but the tone was closer to a political thriller than outright fantasy.

I feel Mephisto would best work in a Doctor Strange or Thor film, where a devil-like figure would fit in more easily.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#115397: Feb 6th 2020 at 10:53:11 PM

We do need Mephisto in Black Panther just so that Ross can wear the devil's pants.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#115398: Feb 6th 2020 at 11:33:05 PM

Wouldn't T'Challa and most of the heroic characters being black mitigate this problem somewhat? They aren't subordinate to Mephisto.

Might come off as a retread of the Supreme Intelligence, though.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#115399: Feb 7th 2020 at 12:20:18 AM

The original cut of Odin’s death and Hela’s release.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Feb 7th 2020 at 12:20:32 PM

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#115400: Feb 7th 2020 at 12:31:37 AM

I like the final cut better. It was a lot more emotional, better pace and doesn't come across as an Exposition Dump. Plus a nice beautiful scenery of Norway and where New Asgard will be.

This one would have severely destroyed Thor: Ragnorak's reputation, turning it into a dumb comedy rather than an action comedy with an emotional core to it.

Edited by Shadao on Feb 7th 2020 at 12:32:06 PM


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