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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#115151: Feb 2nd 2020 at 1:07:54 AM

[up]What’d she do?

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#115152: Feb 2nd 2020 at 1:26:33 AM

Nothing much. She pulled a sword on some Frost Giants, but that was about it.

Ayasugi Since: Oct, 2010
#115153: Feb 2nd 2020 at 3:39:36 AM

She also made Loki king in a deleted scene, and argued with Odin in another deleted scene. (So much good character stuff was in deleted scenes in Thor 1...)

And I have my doubts about how much of a conscience Odin really grew. It wasn't enough for him to actually give back what he'd stolen, or to not keep on killing and stealing if he felt the realms of dangerous monsters needed some punishment.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#115154: Feb 2nd 2020 at 8:30:04 AM

Yeah, I remember Fridga pulling a sword on the Frost Giants too. IIRC she was preparing to defend the sleeping Odin from Laufey before Loki's treachery got him instead? Something like that.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#115155: Feb 2nd 2020 at 8:47:35 AM

[up][up]I don tthink he grew one, or a least not much, just enough to feel bad about it, which is why I hated in ragnarok but them again I hate that movie so whatever.

But yeah, do you imagine odin being killed in thor 2 and Hela showing with the invasion of the dark elves?

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#115156: Feb 2nd 2020 at 8:51:31 AM

I mean he was pretty against Thor invading the Frost Giant realm and slaughtering a shit-ton of people.

So I don't know there was prolly something there.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#115157: Feb 2nd 2020 at 9:18:47 AM

I think it can be safely said he wanted Thor to be better than both him and Hela.

Probably Loki too, but that one didn't turn out.

So 1 out of 2 isn't bad, and even Loki seemed on the verge of improving before he legitimately came down with a bad case of stabbed in the chest.

One Strip! One Strip!
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#115158: Feb 2nd 2020 at 11:02:54 AM

Since I've heard many people espouse this on this site too, I'm just gonna ask:

Why were a good number of viewers saying that they would've preferred to see the version of The Punisher that appeared in DD Season 2 instead of the one we got in his spin-off series? I honestly don't see whats so different, what exactly is meant by that?

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#115159: Feb 2nd 2020 at 12:54:07 PM

It’s amusing that despite his best efforts Odin had to banish or imprison all three of his kids for being dangerous, entitled assholes with destructive ideologies.

Like, one I could get as an outlier. Two could be a coincidence. All three is a pattern: the dude was not good at this.

Hell, all three of them initially became the way they were because they thought it would make him proud.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Feb 2nd 2020 at 12:55:22 PM

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#115160: Feb 2nd 2020 at 1:01:50 PM

[up][up]DD S2 Punisher is an aimless spree killer mowing down any criminal who crosses his path as a revenge rampage. Punisher in his own show is a bit more goal-oriented, protecting his godchild-of-the-season and working to uncover a big government/military/corporate conspiracy, like a more straightforwardly-heroic action hero. The latter makes for a more palatable protagonist, but is somewhat of a divergence from the original comic character.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Feb 2nd 2020 at 4:02:08 AM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#115161: Feb 2nd 2020 at 2:50:14 PM

Actually killing corrupt government officials is something Frank has done numerous times in the comics.

They are like his second-favorite target after "ordinary" criminals.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#115163: Feb 2nd 2020 at 4:20:30 PM

That top comment. tongue

Black Widow: I used to have nothing, but then i got this family

Also Black Widow: The Avengers weren't my first family

Ayasugi Since: Oct, 2010
#115164: Feb 2nd 2020 at 4:25:55 PM

Odin wasn't very against Thor invading Jotunheim and starting a fight with their king, since he tried to pass it off as "boys will be boys" to the victims and denied them any say in the perpetrators' punishment. Plus there was the whole "taking their king's son and raising him in secret to hate his own race" thing.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#115165: Feb 2nd 2020 at 4:28:40 PM

[up][up]Remember this takes place before that first line, so presumably something happens in this film that colors her perception on her family.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#115166: Feb 2nd 2020 at 4:30:26 PM

[up][up] Oh yes his punishment to Thor, taking away his powers & banishing him to Earth to finally learn humility certainly shows he doesn't care about what Thor did.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Ayasugi Since: Oct, 2010
#115167: Feb 2nd 2020 at 4:43:11 PM

Which the Frost Giants had no say in, either the punishment, the conditions for it being undone, or the full forgiveness a few days later. Odin unilaterally controlled all of that, and the most communication he gave with the actual victims was "this was a boy acting out, I've dealt with him appropriately, end of story". That's not a benevolent ruler, that's a despot who doesn't care about his subjects' opinions, just that they all behave according to his rules.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#115168: Feb 2nd 2020 at 4:53:21 PM

Your leaving out a couple details.

For 1 Laufey wants to conquer Asgard & the 9 Realms so if he has any say he'll use it to take advantage of the situation & ask for the Casket or use it as justification to begin his own conquest.

Also 2 about Odin taking his son. Laufey abandoned Loki, leaving him to die & when he finds out years later that his son is indeed alive he states he still should have died all those years ago. Odin saved Loki's life and gave him a home & family which is more than can be said about Loki's own species.

Edited by slimcoder on Feb 2nd 2020 at 4:54:14 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#115169: Feb 2nd 2020 at 5:08:27 PM

Odin is in a funny place between Draco in Leather Pants and Ron the Death Eater because of The Reveal in Ragnarok regarding his imperialistic nature and because people (including the filmmakers) like to give Loki a shiny pair of leather pants (aside from the actual pair he wears).

In this very conversation the understanding of Odin's motives is a bit crooked. Odin shows up to try to enact diplomacy with the Frost Giants but Laufey explicitly refuses to even humor him and declares war right afterwards (direct quote: "There will be no diplomacy, all-father. He'll get what he came for: war and death"). The story never clarifies what Odin would have done if Laufey had just sat down and decided not to declare open war against Asgard over Thor's actions, but as it is the fact that Asgard and Jotunheim are now officially at war means Odin handing Thor's justice to the Frost Giants would be a dicey proposition. Granted, Thor did just storm Jotunheim on a more or less unprovoked attack so Laufey's not entirely in the wrong here, but the fact of the matter still is Odin did the best he could with the situation he was given.

Likewise, people like to say Odin kidnapped Loki and raised him to hate his own kind when A) Odin explicitly points out Loki was a abandoned, runt child left to die that he rescued and nothing ever contradicts this, with Loki's tiny stature compared to the Jotuns being actually evidence that he's being truthful B) Odin never really declares hatred for Frost Giants, the film if anything always shows him as the voice of reason when everyone else tries to go genocidal on Frost Giants.

Interesting thing to note here: Odin, for the more imperialistic dick he was in the past, never tried to wipe out an entire race. Loki straight up commits genocide/attempted genocide in the first Thor movie by way of trying to blow up Jotunheim (and we see several frost giants being blown up during this process so he killed at least a few) and is indirectly responsible for Thanos's genocide of Nidavellir by ignoring their pleas for help (Thor points out in Ragnarok the nine realms are in disarray due "Odin's" absentee management and Eitri points out he begged Asgard for help and nobody answered).

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#115170: Feb 2nd 2020 at 5:28:47 PM

There's also the fact that when the Frost Giants did sneak into Asgard to steal the Casket back, Odin explicitly told Thor that he wasn't going to engage war against Jotunheim for the actions of a few. Granted, it turned out they were there on the orders of Laufey, but still.

It's obvious in retrospect that Odin was slipping back into old habits in Thor: The Dark World. This is most likely a result of having Loki turn into a genocidal conqueror like his sister and losing Frigga in the span of a few years. Not that it justifies his actions by any means.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#115171: Feb 2nd 2020 at 5:49:38 PM

It's rather poignant that Odin didn't figure things out until the end of his life. At the end, he's proud of Thor and Loki and acknowledges them both as his sons. And the way he warns them about Hela shows that he feels regret about how he treated her.

Disgusted, but not surprised
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#115172: Feb 2nd 2020 at 5:52:46 PM

Man basically spent his entire life trying to make things right & all throughout he just kept failing & failing.

He only finally did something right the day he died.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#115173: Feb 2nd 2020 at 6:01:16 PM

"Sons, it's time for me to do the right thing. I confess: for the last 1500 years you've had a secret sister I've been keeping locked up in a nether dimension and now she's going to break out and kill everybody."

"Wait, what-"

"Bye! That's your problem now!" *poofs*

Ayasugi Since: Oct, 2010
#115174: Feb 2nd 2020 at 6:03:39 PM

Odin's idea of diplomacy was trying to pull a "boys will be boys" on Laufey, who naturally treated Thor's invasion as the serious act of war that it was. That's not being reasonable and respectful, that's being condescending and dismissive.

And he might not have actively taught his sons to hate Frost Giants, but he didn't do shit to counteract the anti-Jotun prejudice of their society or correct his own sons when they started talking about Frost Giants as monsters who should be destroyed. The way he tells history, they're just monsters who need to be killed before they kill innocents, and the only admonition he gives when little Thor boasts that he'll destroy all the monsters is a "don't seek out war" platitude, which is undercut by him immediately saying to always be ready for a war.

Odin might not be the actively malicious bloodthirsty conqueror he's painted as in Ragnarok's backstory, but he's still far from a good king or father. He's neglectful and passively oppressive, and as TDW shows, not that far from slipping right back into bloodthirstiness. He's also painfully unaware of how his moral example contributed to his sons' thinking that wiping out an entire race would be a good thing that would impress him.

Edited by Ayasugi on Feb 2nd 2020 at 9:14:33 AM

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#115175: Feb 2nd 2020 at 6:04:47 PM

"And as TDK shows"

I didn't know Odin helped Batman.

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.

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