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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#115051: Jan 31st 2020 at 2:40:24 AM

Old Steve coming from an alternate "married with Peggy" universe does not explain why he reappears outside of the time machine. I know it is a minor point, but I don't quite see why he would travel back to the prime timeline (probably after Peggy died in the Married timeline) and decide to stop some time before when Professor Hulk was waiting for him on the platform, just to make a cool entrance (sort of).

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
MrSeyker Since: Apr, 2011
#115052: Jan 31st 2020 at 3:03:09 AM

Steve just likes his dramatic entrances.

Do recall him stepping out of the shadows when rescuing his team at the Raft and when rescuing Wanda and Vision from Proxima Midnight.

I personally like to imagine he's not exactly proud of how the quantum suit looks on him in his old age, so he sneaked back a bit earlier just to get time to change and be presentable for his talk with Sam.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#115053: Jan 31st 2020 at 3:12:05 AM

[up][up] That he jumped twice, the first time to go back as we saw and the second to switch timelines from the parallel dimension's version of the present day to "ours", means he could theoretically show up wherever he wanted. He doesn't have to come back using that same specific machine.

MrSeyker Since: Apr, 2011
#115054: Jan 31st 2020 at 3:19:00 AM

The visuals of the movie is that you return to the prime timeline THROUGH the portal which initiated the quantum travel, though.

When 2014 Thanos comes through to our timeline, he does so through the quantum portal in Avengers HQ.

So yes, a returning Steven would need to come out through the machine.

The Russos say he did, but earlier than Hulk's planned schedule.

AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#115055: Jan 31st 2020 at 3:33:06 AM

My first time watching the ending, I thought the shot of the elderly Steve looking at the lake might've been skinny pre-serum Steve somehow.

Anyway, I've always held that I get Steve wanting to take the chance to go back and at least see Peggy for just a bit to chat about things and even have that dance, but I would've had him stop at the short visit before going back to the present looking as he did before leaving. And maybe exposit a bit more to Sam and Bucky about what he was doing before deciding to just take it easy from now on in the present and give the shield to Sam. Maybe look into being a therapist.

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#115056: Jan 31st 2020 at 3:46:53 AM

I'd have been fine if they kept it 99% the same but Steve stranding up in Peggy's time was treated as a happy coincidence rather than something he did willfully in lieu of following the plan.

We catch him at the end of what was clearly a heartfelt farewell (so they don't need to drag it out) to a very risky plan that would likely cause him to die afterward, but offered himself up as the one to do it. Most of the heroes have already left, and it's just Bucky and Sam remaining who then walk off somberly, already resigned to the fact that Steve probably wouldn't make it back anyway, before they see the old man, and Bucky is able to instantly recognize him due to knowing him so well, and then the scene progresses mostly as it originally did, because in a stroke of sheer serendipity or Steve using his strong willpower to concentrate on the right chronological landing pad, he ended up finding an alternate Peggy to come home to.

MrSeyker Since: Apr, 2011
#115057: Jan 31st 2020 at 3:47:19 AM

[up][up] The problem with that scenario is that Evans wanted a definitive out. Young Steve back in the present leaves the door open for him still being active.

And while him just stopping and retiring makes for a logical character arc given the events of the movies, the idea that he'd just stop would be a hard sell to most people (why do you think so many balk at the idea that Steve just let evil happen in the scenario where he was always old Steve in the timeline?).

I can guarantee you we might be in Phase 5 and people would still be asking "Where's Steve?".

Aging him out via time travel guarantees he can't get back in the fray.

Though the movie still conveniently establishes a way to backdown from such decision via the rejuvenation gag while developing the quantum time portal.

[up] I'm sorry, I must be missing something in your scenario, because I can't make sense of what you are saying.

Edited by MrSeyker on Jan 31st 2020 at 3:52:59 AM

C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#115058: Jan 31st 2020 at 4:01:41 AM

The way time travel works allows them to bring back any character they want anyway. They can even afford not to care too much about sending them back to the past with the knowledge of the future, since whatever the character will do in the past with that knowledge will not affect the present anyway.

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#115059: Jan 31st 2020 at 4:05:44 AM

I feel like this whole scenario is an exercise in the pitfalls of overthinking things. Now, I'm not one to shy away from nitpicking (*cough*), but one has to look at the intent of the scenes as much as their execution. Marvel doesn't want to have time travel be a repeated gimmick, and it wants to exit these characters in such a way that they'd have to reach deep into the colon to bring them back. Fair enough, mission accomplished.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#115060: Jan 31st 2020 at 4:10:11 AM

[up][up][up] They can keep Old Steve marrying Peggy but portray it in a way that avoids the Character Derailment of suggesting he suddenly cut and ran. Instead of it being Bucky going "oh, well actually he lied to everyone except me who was still left out to dry in a way, because he gave up on us to hang out with Peggy" it's more "he did his duty to the letter and also happened to be rewarded with getting to hang out with her like he wanted in the process". Basically he gets the best possible outcome of a situation that would've kept him from being able to continue in the role anyway.

Edited by AlleyOop on Jan 31st 2020 at 7:19:40 AM

MrSeyker Since: Apr, 2011
#115061: Jan 31st 2020 at 5:32:20 AM

Ah, I get it, you just picture him being stranded in the alternate timeline, and I suppose finding a quantum way back once that timeline catches up to prime in the tech department? Something like that? Or am I still misinterpreting the conclusion on your scenario?

The whole Steve goes back to Peggy is not how I wanted his arc to end tbh. I'd rather he keep going.

But since that's not an option, and given the parameters set by the movie, the Russo interpretation is the best possible outcome here.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#115062: Jan 31st 2020 at 6:18:58 AM

Runaways also uses time travel in it's last season, but it uses a different method than both Endgame and Agents of SHIELD.

TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#115064: Jan 31st 2020 at 7:04:13 AM

That's the thing: at some point, a writer or a showrunner is going to want to use time travel in some way, because these are essentially science fiction stories and time travel is a science fiction trope. The movies managed to hold off (aside from turning time backwards at one point) until Endgame, but because there are so many writers and so many stories in the MCU, someone else using time travel was an inevitability and because Endgame was so secretive, they obviously used a different form. (AOS's time travel actually pre-dates Endgame.)

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#115065: Jan 31st 2020 at 7:32:41 AM

Time travel's not that complicated. Clearly, the simplest solution is the right one. And the simplest solution is quantum probability reality-states!

See, when Steve traveled back in time, he wasn't really in the past. He was observing the past to be different, but the past would only remain different so long as he was there observing it. It was a quantum reality-state that only existed around Steve, like a virtual simulation of the real past that he could modify as he chose.

Steve lived in this reality-state, where he was simultaneously somewhen and yet nowhen, for decades. The past progressed as normal without the changes he made, but his experience of the past incorporated those changes. So he married Peggy, but Peggy never married him; she moved on with her life as we saw in Winter Soldier.

Then, when Steve arrived at the present, he returned to the prime reality-state where reality is being observed not just by him but by everyone. His quantum vacation collapsed and the true reality asserted itself once more. He sat himself down on that bench beside where the time machine was supposed to be and waited for the collapse to kick him back out into true time.

Isn't that so much simpler? I fixed it! I--wait, why does everyone have nosebleeds...?

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#115066: Jan 31st 2020 at 7:39:20 AM

I will just said superboy prime punch time reaaaaaally hard and that is explain everything.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#115067: Jan 31st 2020 at 9:46:38 AM

[up][up] That's pretty much how I interpreted it.

The movie never says that travel to the past is travel to alternate universes (it can create alternate universes, but only if you remove an Infinity Stone). It's just any changes you make to the past won't carry over to the present. So you can go back in time and kill baby Thanos, but as soon as you return to the present, baby Thanos will pop up alive again, and there will be no memory or evidence of him ever being killed.

So the way I interpreted Old Man Steve is that he went back into the past, married Peggy, and lived a rich full life where he probably used his future knowledge to prevent disasters. But once he caught up to the present (via The Slow Path), all the changes he had made to history were automatically undone.

TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#115070: Jan 31st 2020 at 10:22:17 AM

I vote Cat-Head Loki. He looks like one anyway.

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#115071: Jan 31st 2020 at 11:02:04 AM

Snake Loki who tempts someone eating into some forbidden fruit

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Xiphoniii Cheeky son of a.... from Florida Since: Aug, 2009
Cheeky son of a....
#115072: Jan 31st 2020 at 11:05:36 AM

Owen Wilson is playing the platonic ideal of wow.

:smug:
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#115073: Jan 31st 2020 at 1:03:04 PM

@ Mr Seyker

Pretty much, yeah.

The Russos' interpretation is easily the better of the two but it's surprising that the writers would come up with something so bad considering they were more involved in figureing out the time mechanics in the first place, and because they're usually pretty good about being smarter than this.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#115074: Jan 31st 2020 at 1:09:22 PM

I knew time travel would come up eventually, but I thought it'd be by something like Strange putting a spell on the Time Stone before he gave it to Thanos.

What I think is the bigger plot problem than the timelines issue is how the time machine is left around still completely usable after the problem with Thanos is solved so there's pretty much no reason they can't grab anything they want from it or bring people back from the dead. Maybe they'll destroy it in another movie, but it'll still be arbitrary why the heroes can't build another.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Jan 31st 2020 at 1:44:24 AM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#115075: Jan 31st 2020 at 1:15:32 PM

Heh I can just see a writer quickly solving the problem by having their time machine spontaneously vanishes right when they're looking it at

"Hey,where it go"

And then suddenly everyone develops memory loss at the same time so no one can remember they had a time machine or that they built one

have a listen and have a link to my discord server

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