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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#113701: Dec 13th 2019 at 9:04:14 PM

While I dont like ragnarok at all, one thing I agree is that Odin chararterization aling pretty well with the other two movies, since Odin is putting the lie the told loki over is well being, pretty much the same thing he does with hela.

In fact, he utter hatred for the dark elves make me thing he devolpt is blood thristiness over that: he saw so much destruction that he bow to push all the monster of all realms.....and you know how that goes...

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Ayasugi Since: Oct, 2010
#113702: Dec 13th 2019 at 9:28:38 PM

Yeah, the problem with Odin in Ragnarok isn't how he's written, it's how he's framed. We're meant to think that while he used to be a bloodthirsty conqueror he had since grown and changed and didn't repeat the mistakes he made with Hela when it came to his sons. But what we're shown, in it and the previous movies, is that he never gave up his ill-gotten gains, throwing doubt on how much he regretted his conquests, and he was ready to spill blood fairly indiscriminately when provoked. And while he might not have raised Thor or Loki to be as overtly bloodthirsty as Hela, he didn't successfully teach either of them that completely wiping out their enemies was wrong, and when they both tried, he treated them both similiarly to Hela: he stripped them of whatever he could and cast them out, only giving Thor the slightest hope of earning forgiveness.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#113703: Dec 13th 2019 at 10:03:28 PM

Also, in the first movie there was the delated scene were it show loki would be the heir of asgard, so maybe that context remains a little bit here and there in the movie.

[up]Ragnarok recontextualized Odin as evil or that is reason are selfish but also make him this obi wan figure for Thor, showing in his dream and telling him people is what matter....which it feel forced because before it was reveal all the bad stuff he did, so there is not good connection between conqueror odin and good odin.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#113704: Dec 13th 2019 at 10:08:56 PM

Odin kind of messed up being a father really badly. It's only in his final moments that he seemed to have finally gotten it right, showing nothing but love and pride for both of his sons and remorse for how he raised his daughter.

Disgusted, but not surprised
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#113705: Dec 13th 2019 at 10:35:31 PM

In hindsight, the spell he put on Mjolnir is weird.

That's something I've never quite understood. Is the barrier for using Mjolnir lower for Thor than it is for everyone else? Or is Thor supposed to be morally superior to all of them except Cap?

Who's standards for "worthyness" does the hammer measure? If it's Odin's, then wouldn't his standards for morality be kinda fucky given his backstory? Or does the spell appeal to some objective concept of goodness in the universe?

Edited by GNinja on Dec 13th 2019 at 6:35:59 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#113706: Dec 13th 2019 at 10:36:30 PM

I always figured it to be "worthy of ruling Asgard" or some such.

Edited by LordVatek on Dec 13th 2019 at 1:36:56 PM

This song needs more love.
Ayasugi Since: Oct, 2010
#113707: Dec 13th 2019 at 10:41:59 PM

[up][up][up][up] Exactly, Ragnarok ramped up all his negative traits, but then tried to play a vague "he felt remorse" change as redeeming him enough to be an inspirational spirit guide figure to Thor.

[up][up][up] A deathbed repentance rings hollow to me, especially in Odin's case because if he truly felt sorry and wanted to make up for his mistakes he could've returned to Asgard once he broke Loki's spell and warned his sons about Hela's arrival. Or worked on a way to seal her that would last even after his death. It's very convenient for him to have a change of heart when it's too late for him to do anything to demonstrate it, and leaving others to deal with his mistakes isn't far out of line with his other flaws that caused so many problems.

Edited by Ayasugi on Dec 13th 2019 at 1:46:59 PM

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#113708: Dec 13th 2019 at 11:20:36 PM

I think with the benefit of hindsight, Odin's reaction to Thor's fuckup is so extreme because he was terrified that he'd fucked everything up and just made another Hela.

My various fanfics.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#113709: Dec 13th 2019 at 11:26:55 PM

I think with the benefit of hindsight

(Hulk Punch)

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Ayasugi Since: Oct, 2010
#113710: Dec 13th 2019 at 11:38:24 PM

[up][up] Which makes his reaction even worse, because he didn't even seal Thor away, he just reduced his powers and dumped him on a planet full of people he could kill before they could stop him. And if he shows fear via shouting rage at the person he's afraid he messed up with, that's a pretty fucked up response.

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#113711: Dec 13th 2019 at 11:47:16 PM

[up][up] Despite me kinda infamously disliking the "Puny god" gag from Avengers 1, I really found its equivalent scene from Ultron funny. I don't know why.

Maybe it's because I found the way Ultron seemed so resigned funnier than Loki being blindsided.

Ultron's villainous breakdown is to just be kinda done with everything.

Edited by GNinja on Dec 13th 2019 at 7:49:47 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#113712: Dec 13th 2019 at 11:49:11 PM

It's sad because Hulk punching him away instead of mashing him into the ground like Loki let Ultron get away and kill Quicksilver. D:

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#113713: Dec 13th 2019 at 11:52:22 PM

You could argue that Odin might have realized that sealing Hela away forever also wasn't the best course of action, but knew that there was no way to undo it without her going on a rampage that he probably wouldn't be able to stop. So he stripped Thor of his power and sent him away to Earth with the minor addendum that there is a way for Thor to return home, he just has to learn humility, compassion, and selflessness. And obviously he can't tell Thor why he's sending him to Earth because then Thor might half-ass it if he knows that there's a way home within reach.

And let's be honest, nobody was in that much danger from a hammerless Thor. He got taken down by Darcy with a taser.

My various fanfics.
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#113714: Dec 14th 2019 at 12:00:47 AM

@Ayasugi A depowered Thor was in more danger from humans on earth than he was to them. Although you could argue that's troubling for other reasons.

[up]Given what Hela was like, I'm not sure what else Odin could have done short of killing his own child.

Edited by windleopard on Dec 15th 2019 at 1:13:17 AM

Ayasugi Since: Oct, 2010
#113715: Dec 14th 2019 at 12:13:00 AM

[up][up] Still very irresponsible of Odin to not ensure that Thor couldn't harm anyone on Earth. What if the first people he ran into didn't have a taser and said something to anger him? And it still doesn't excuse or explain his borderline abusive behavior towards Thor right before banishing him.

[up] And why couldn't he kill Hela? He was ready to sentence Loki to death for far less and only commuted his sentence because Frigga pleaded for his life.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#113716: Dec 14th 2019 at 12:13:23 AM

That's assuming he even could kill her — sealing her away might very well have been his only option.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Ayasugi Since: Oct, 2010
#113717: Dec 14th 2019 at 12:15:10 AM

Except destroying Asgard seemingly killed her. Why not do that, then? Atone for all of his mistakes at once by giving up the kingdom he built with blood in order to depower/kill the child he turned into his murderous general.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#113718: Dec 14th 2019 at 12:24:41 AM

Yes, destroying your entire world and leaving all of your people homeless is totally something a leader would do if they had other options.

No, wait, it's not.

They only did that in Ragnarok because it was the only option left.

Edited by M84 on Dec 15th 2019 at 4:27:06 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#113719: Dec 14th 2019 at 12:25:09 AM

Because Asgard isn't just Odin's kingdom it's his home. [nja]

As for Loki, I guess Odin didn't see him as his child the same way he saw Hela and Thor.

Edited by windleopard on Dec 14th 2019 at 12:25:25 PM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#113720: Dec 14th 2019 at 12:26:13 AM

Not to mention that killing Loki would have been much easier than killing a full-powered Hela.

Disgusted, but not surprised
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#113721: Dec 14th 2019 at 12:26:40 AM

Odin didn't want to give up his power. The whole mural scene showed that he decided it would be better to keep his stolen power and use it to create reparations for the people he wronged (albeit while rewriting history to make people forget that he's responsible for those wrongs).

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#113722: Dec 14th 2019 at 12:28:37 AM

It seems that at some point Odin grew weary of slaughter and decided to switch to keeping peace between the realms, putting his ill-gotten resources and power to a positive goal.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Ayasugi Since: Oct, 2010
#113723: Dec 14th 2019 at 12:53:47 AM

It was only the sole option left because Odin did shit-all to solve or even tell others about the Hela problem in advance so they could try to think of something else. Even if destroying Asgard was the only way to stop her he could have relocated all the Asgardians and then destroyed the realm so they'd never be in danger and wouldn't be homeless. Instead he sat comfortably on his throne, covering up how he gained all his power, playing at being the just peacemaker while still violently taking what he wanted from the other realms whenever they stepped out of line, and was one personal tragedy away from going full-blown genocidal again.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#113724: Dec 14th 2019 at 1:25:15 AM

Relocate them to where? It's not like he just had another spare empty planet handy. I agree not telling anyone about Hela was a mistake but not blowing up Asgard when he had other options was the right call.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#113725: Dec 14th 2019 at 1:34:36 AM

still violently taking what he wanted from the other realms whenever they stepped out of line

When did we see him do this?


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