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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#113351: Dec 1st 2019 at 10:47:10 PM

The death of magic arc is really good

That whole run, honestly

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#113352: Dec 1st 2019 at 11:29:51 PM

For Doctor Strange, there's always the classic Doctor Strange: The Oath. It's a mini-series, so it's self-contained and it's really well written and drawn. (The writer is Brian K. Vaughan, who also did Runaways and Saga.) There's also Strange: The Doctor Is Out, which is another mini-series, this time by Mark Waid and Emma Rios, which is great, but also takes place at a time when Strange wasn't the Sorcerer Supreme.

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#113353: Dec 2nd 2019 at 6:15:51 AM

do Sentinels really have to be mutant only? You could rework them to some MegaCorp's marketing scheme to make general anti-super killing machines. That can also function as regular killing machines. Have them start some conflict to better advertise their murder bots, throw in some Tony Stark grudge, try to avoid as many Ultron comparisons as possible and you're set.

DAMN YOU ULTRON YOU STOLE THE MURDERBOT GIG FROM EVERYONE I HOPE YOU'RE HAPPY WITH YOURSELF

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#113354: Dec 2nd 2019 at 7:03:32 AM

I just want to see the in-universe commercials for them. You know, bright sunny suburbia, classic WASP nuclear family, and the Sentinels protecting them from...those people. It’ll make the ED-209 rollout seem like subdued satire.

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#113355: Dec 2nd 2019 at 7:05:32 AM

[up][up] I tend to think of Sentinels as closer to something like ED-209. Cold machines that represent wild, unchecked automation in fields that really should be overseen by humans, as even slight errors in programming can lead to catastrophic system errors. That's not necesarily in the same field as Ultron. He's more about the dangers of Artificial Intelligence

Edited by GNinja on Dec 2nd 2019 at 3:09:12 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#113356: Dec 2nd 2019 at 7:17:57 AM

do Sentinels really have to be mutant only? You could rework them to some Mega-Corp's marketing scheme to make general anti-super killing machines. That can also function as regular killing machines. Have them start some conflict to better advertise their murder bots, throw in some Tony Stark grudge, try to avoid as many Ultron comparisons as possible and you're set.

DAMN YOU ULTRON YOU STOLE THE MURDERBOT GIG FROM EVERYONE I HOPE YOU'RE HAPPY WITH YOURSELF

Like many things concerning bigotry towards mutants, if you take away the part where they hate mutants, you lose the main point of them as a plot device.

A common point of contention with the X-Men as a franchise is that it seems silly for the public to hate and fear Cyclops but be totally fine with Captain Marvel. Like, Like, if Carol shoots lasers, it's okay, but if Scott shoots lasers, he's a dangerous menace to society. Double-standard, much?

But that double standard is the point. A popular defense of anti-mutant bigotry (because everything has to have its defenders, I guess) is that they're legit dangerous in a way that real-world minorities are not. They aren't just black or gay or whatever, they can shoot lasers. And, in a vacuum, maybe that's fair. Sort of. Could be debated.

But in a superhero world populated by millions of people shooting lasers all the time, that defense moves from "debatable" to "completely indefensible". When lasers are okay unless they're mutant lasers, we're right back to mutants being just like everyone else but unfairly maligned just 'cause they exist.

This is why, contrary to popular belief, mutants work better in a shared superhero universe than they do in a vacuum. In a vacuum, they're victims of bigotry because superpowers. In a shared universe, they're victims of superpower bigotry. The metaphor works when people can say, "We love you Captain Marvel!" and "Get out of here, mutie!" in the same breath.

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Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#113357: Dec 2nd 2019 at 7:33:28 AM

[up]I mean, that exact problem is why I'm not a fan of the x men as a metaphor for minorities. Many mutants legitimately do have powers that are dangerous to both themselves and other people if not controlled or harnessed properly (that was part of the reason why Xavier opened his school). Gay people, black people, etc are not any different or capable of different, more dangerous things than anyone else.

No metaphor is perfect obviously but this one is just bad, in my opinion.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Dec 2nd 2019 at 11:37:01 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#113358: Dec 2nd 2019 at 7:38:42 AM

Yeah, but many non-mutants have powers that are dangerous to themselves and others too. In a superhero universe, it's the equivalent of rolling a d20 for everyone in the world, giving them all random guns if they roll above a 13, and then being racist against anyone who specifically has a Glock.

That people aren't racist against other supers isn't a bug. It's a feature of the metaphor. If Spider-Man saves Bob from a burning building, he's grateful, but if Storm does it, he slaps her in the face and call her a racial epithet. That's racism.

It's a superhero metaphor for a superhero world.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 2nd 2019 at 8:40:48 AM

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Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#113359: Dec 2nd 2019 at 7:43:04 AM

Spider-Man might be a bad example since because of the Bugle there are times when the citizens hate him just as much.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#113360: Dec 2nd 2019 at 7:44:16 AM

[up][up]If that’s the case, then don’t make the Sentinels publicly anti-mutant weapons. Sell them as peacekeeper bots that just happen to have subroutines that make them disproportionately go after...those people.

Edited by Beatman1 on Dec 2nd 2019 at 10:46:11 AM

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#113361: Dec 2nd 2019 at 7:45:02 AM

I'm not saying mutant prejudice is justified in-universe, nor did I really bring up the fact that people arent prejudiced towards other superpowered people since that's not relevant to what I was talking about. I'm just saying I think the X-Men are not a good metaphor ( or at least a heavily flawed one) for minority struggles.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Dec 2nd 2019 at 11:48:31 AM

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#113362: Dec 2nd 2019 at 7:47:49 AM

I think it's because the deepest fear mutants inspire is a lot more existential in nature. "Acceptable" supers are, on the whole, abberations. They can be taken and quantified as exceptions that further prove the rule. It doesn't matter that we aren't superhuman ourselves because those that are are merely deviations from normality. They don't represent a fundamental shift in the natural order. So you can appreciate them the same way you can appreciate a miracle.

Mutants as a concept do conjure that kind of imagery. The whole "next stage in human evolution stuff", whether it's literally true or not, threatens that security that we "normal" humans will always be the default on this planet. All of a sudden this entirely new demographic could REPLACE us.

Edited by GNinja on Dec 2nd 2019 at 4:20:30 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#113363: Dec 2nd 2019 at 8:08:06 AM

And then Avengers Forever revealed a Bad Future where superhumans are the template for the future and take over space.

Checkmate, marvel citizenry.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#113364: Dec 2nd 2019 at 8:27:33 AM

[up]

If they knew that, they'd just start hunting normal superhumans.

Hell, the Sentinels themselves figured that out when they first came online, and that's why we got Days of Future Past.

But that double standard is the point. A popular defense of anti-mutant bigotry (because everything has to have its defenders, I guess) is that they're legit dangerous in a way that real-world minorities are not. They aren't just black or gay or whatever, they can shoot lasers. And, in a vacuum, maybe that's fair. Sort of. Could be debated.

But in a superhero world populated by millions of people shooting lasers all the time, that defense moves from "debatable" to "completely indefensible". When lasers are okay unless they're mutant lasers, we're right back to mutants being just like everyone else but unfairly maligned just 'cause they exist.

...huh. Never thought of that. It being that stupid in universe does reflect real life pretty well.

One Strip! One Strip!
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#113365: Dec 2nd 2019 at 8:33:39 AM

Another issue with mutant prejudice is how humans seem to have no issue being able to tell the difference between mutants and other non-mutant superhumans. Hercules was born with his powers but as far as I am aware no one has ever mistaken him for a mutant.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#113366: Dec 2nd 2019 at 8:34:13 AM

It’s probably the beard

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Cross (Don’t ask)
#113367: Dec 2nd 2019 at 8:41:07 AM

[up][up] In that particular case, wouldn't that depend on people believing he's actually "Hercules", as in the mythic figure?

After that there's a whole slew of other questions that are waiting to be asked.

Edited by Cross on Dec 2nd 2019 at 11:45:21 AM

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#113368: Dec 2nd 2019 at 8:44:51 AM

[up]People believe the Norse God of Thunder is running around, but he’s an alien. The same excuse could probably be used for Hercules once he shows up in an LA drunk tank.

Have I mentioned I want to see Hercules in something? He’s probably a supporting character, maybe a buddy team with Cho, but there’s a lot of fun to be had.

Edited by Beatman1 on Dec 2nd 2019 at 11:45:57 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#113369: Dec 2nd 2019 at 8:47:59 AM

I remember the first issue of The Initiative, a Civil War follow-up comic, had a military character commenting on the Mutant Decimation.

He said something to the effect of, "With mutants gone, we're back to aliens, sorcerers, and good old-fashioned lab accidents just the way God intended."

There's always been a religious component to anti-mutant bigotry. Being a mutant is somehow considered in and of itself a sin against God, which has parallels to the real-world treatment of LGBT people. Anti-mutant extremists frequently use Christian imagery.

In fact, William Stryker from X-2 is actually a Reverend in the comics.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 2nd 2019 at 9:54:00 AM

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Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#113370: Dec 2nd 2019 at 8:53:51 AM

"Mutants go home!" "We ARE home"

from the Floating Hands videos springs to mind.

Edited by Bocaj on Dec 2nd 2019 at 11:54:39 AM

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
jouXIII The One Who Knows Many Things from Between the Multiverses (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
The One Who Knows Many Things
#113371: Dec 2nd 2019 at 9:00:18 AM

Tobias Drake: A common point of contention with the X-Men as a franchise is that it seems silly for the public to hate and fear Cyclops but be totally fine with Captain Marvel. Like, Like, if Carol shoots lasers, it's okay, but if Scott shoots lasers, he's a dangerous menace to society. Double-standard, much?

While I see what you mean, isn't the difference between Carol and Scott that she can control her lasers while he has to wear his glasses so that he doesn't vaporise anything and anyone he looks at?

Edited by jouXIII on Dec 2nd 2019 at 7:01:01 PM

I assure you, I'm perfectly trustable person
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#113372: Dec 2nd 2019 at 9:05:11 AM

Scott's Power Incontinence is a product of brain damage, not his mutation. Carol's had problems with her powers from time to time too.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 2nd 2019 at 10:06:41 AM

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Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#113373: Dec 2nd 2019 at 9:05:55 AM

That's a disability independent of his mutant-ness. He bonked his head bad.

The same comparison could be made with Havok who doesn't have Scott's laser punch incontinence.

[up] [nja]

Edited by Bocaj on Dec 2nd 2019 at 12:06:09 PM

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Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#113374: Dec 2nd 2019 at 9:06:26 AM

Like Rogue stealing her powers and then Carol taking over Rogue's body or something [up][up]

Edited by Ultimatum on Dec 2nd 2019 at 5:08:37 PM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#113375: Dec 2nd 2019 at 9:06:49 AM

In a sense, Scott's actually a double-helping of minority because he's a disabled mutant. He manages his disability well, though.

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