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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
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You could say the same thing about beating a villain in a fistfight.
Excessive escalation isn't really as necessary as fans and writers seem to think it is. If you want a good series of films about guys who win by outwitting opponents with well placed escalation, try the Ocean's series.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Nov 26th 2019 at 5:43:24 AM
G Ninja it seems you just don't like seeing villains lose period.
One of the ways the comics dealt with Doctor Strange was by having him essentially creating new problems since his solution to the current problem always involved making dangerous deals or tapping into power he shouldn't be using.
In the comics, it's also once pointed out that being exposed to magic is also taking its toll on Doctor Strange. His body is now so fucked up that he cannot even eat normal food anymore — he cannot digest it. Internally he's got more in common with eldritch extradimensional horrors than humans and thus has to eat like them.
Edited by M84 on Nov 26th 2019 at 9:46:53 PM
Disgusted, but not surprisedBut how long can a universe destroying monster feel competent if Strange ALWAYS beats them without fail? At some point, when a "puny human" is capable of consistantly repelling you despite you being able to shatter the solar system with a blink, surely you're just bad at your job?
Edited by GNinja on Nov 26th 2019 at 1:48:21 PM
Kaze ni Nare!
x5 That too. Strange has cut deals with nearly half his Rogues Gallery at one point or another, ranging from direct assistance to various powerups, and all that Faustian Bargain -ing has come back to bite him and the universe in the collective rear on numerous occasions.
Edited by ViperMagnum357 on Nov 26th 2019 at 8:48:53 AM
There are always other ways to establish their threat level other than leveling the setting. One of the most common in Doctor Strange stories is to have the villains (being interdimensional threats and all) lay waste to some other realm of existence or by steamrolling through some other realm guardians before they get to Doctor Strange.
And of course, the most basic method is just having Strange survive by the skin of his teeth and at a high cost.
This isn't even new to the MCU, given that Dormammu literally wins at first and kills everybody but Strange until Strange winds back time to try again. And even Strange's "victory" requires him to get murdered hundreds of times to basically edge out a Mutually Assured Destruction of sorts scenario with Dormammu. It's the textbook definition of winning by the skin of your teeth.
"All you Fascists bound to lose."Once the universe was blown up on Strange’s watch and he had to entreat the embodiment of Eternity to restore it
I remember reading this (it was a Silver Age story, right?), my favorite part was when it established that it wasn't just the Marvel universe that got destroyed, it was your universe, too. Yes, you, the person reading this comic book, represented by a kid reading this comic book, you and your whole universe just died like a minute ago, and the only reason you exist to read this comic book is because Dr. Strange got Eternity to bring back your universe, which I will proceed to tell you about in the past tense, because it just happened.
God, reading that was fucking mind-blowing. That, as a writer, you can break the 4th wall in such an extreme and audacious way and it not only works, it works AMAZINGLY.
Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Nov 26th 2019 at 7:00:24 AM
It's also worth noting that Strange keeps his enemies at bay. He doesn't own them and defeat them for all time. They're always trying to force their way in, and he doesn't have the power to defeat them, so he has to constantly be fighting.
It's not a "Strange is smart, ergo he's unbeatable" situation. It's a "Strange is smart, and it's sometimes his only weapon" situation. He's not Bugs Bunny.
@Known Unknown: Because normally the discrepancy isn't THAT big. People always counter with this. By acting like I don't know that good guys tend to win in Super hero stories. I know. I can suspend my disbelief. But there's a limit when you stack the odds against a hero that much and constantly have them win. It takes me out of it and makes me question the effectiveness of a villain who can't win despite possessing god-like powers. Obidiah Stane couldn't blow up the planet. He's never presented that way, so I'm not questioning why he isn't instantly beating Iron Man. I'm just enjoying the conflict for what it is. There's always going to be a part of me that recognizes that the good guys win in the end, but certain techniques drag my attention towards noticing it.
@M84: I don't have a problem with villains losing as an abstract concept. I tend to have problems with how it's presented, but I don't always complain about it. I was fine with Thanos' defeat in Endgame for one. Mysterio too. I liked that one a lot. I'm fine with most of them honestly. Dormammu's one of the big ones I don't like, and not because of what Strange does, but the tone of the scene as it's happening
I guess this is my penance for being kind of a downer, it's easy to get this impression of me that isn't entirely accurate. Mostly because if I like something, I'm rarely enthusiastic enough about it to mention it.
Edited by GNinja on Nov 26th 2019 at 5:26:27 PM
Kaze ni Nare!Then it sounds like your problem isn't with the heroes winning, but the stakes and frames of power themselves.
There really isn't. People have been telling stories about mortals fighting gods for thousands of years.
That's because it's the execution and the story, not the superficial nature of the strength levels involved, that matters most. As long as the story is told well and makes sense, the difference in power won't break most of the audience's suspension of disbelief.
In comparison, Strange is kind of tame - he has his own level of strength that at least gives him a fighting chance, and - again - he's typically established as having to find creative solutions by the skin of his teeth.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Nov 26th 2019 at 6:06:14 AM
Yeah, it's noted that he's never been able to permanently defeat any of his more powerful extradimensional foes. All he's mostly managed to do is keep them out of our universe. Whenever they do manage to get in, things go very bad very fast. And Strange then inevitably has to do something completely mad to salvage things — and that usually has consequences that set up another plot arc.
Edited by M84 on Nov 26th 2019 at 10:07:00 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised![]()
It doesn't automatically break my suspension of disbelief either. A film about a human repelling a god or holding them at bay. I'm down with that. Where it starts to lose me is when it's part of a long form series where this type of conflict happens with regularity. That's when the power discrepancy starts to stick out in my mind. Because this is no longer an isolated incident. This is a pattern of behaviour. When someone takes on odds that are a million to one and always comes out with a favourable result (I'm not talking about Strange beating the hell out of the gods or anything. I mean escaping with Earth intact.) I just start doubting those odds eventually. I don't doubt them the first time, or even at all if the event is infrequent enough, but I do when it's routine.
Edited by GNinja on Nov 26th 2019 at 2:22:47 PM
Kaze ni Nare!The Ancient One unnaturally prolonging her life by sapping energy from Dormammu's dimension.
She did this to keep earth safe, but it led to Kaecilius striking making a pact with Dormammu to bring about eternal life (which really just means being absorbed by Dormammu).
Dormammu was winning in that third act, and his damage was undone by Strange when he used the time stone.
To beat Dormammu Strange had to die and then strike a deal with him to get him off our dimension.
And all of this sets Mordo on his crusade to end magic.
Every action carried out by the Sorcerer Supreme in that movie sets in motion events that will come to bite them in the ass later.
Being the Sorcerer Supreme comes at a price.
Even in Avengers Strange can't escape this, as he had to basically orchestrate the death of Tony to make sure the universe survived, because he couldn't find no other way out among 14 million timelines he could witness.
@Gaon I absolutely adore the ending of Dr Strange on paper. It's clever, and it sells how dangerous dormammu is while also showing off Strange's resolve.
My problem is entirely the way they chose to frame it. Am I wrong? Is the scene not played for laughs? H Ave I been misinterpreting it this entire time? Because I swear it's treated like it's comical, and I really don't find it funny.
Kaze ni Nare!Also, Strange's actions undid the Snap, but they never got the time stone back.
Now it's just a matter of time before Dormammu tries to consume our dimension again.
Nope, its most certainly framed in a comedic manner, what with the montage of Strange deaths.
Edited by MrSeyker on Nov 26th 2019 at 6:33:41 AM
That's another thing that happens often in Doctor Strange stories — the solutions he finds to deal with extradimensional horrors are usually one-shot deals. Whenever said horrors come back he has to figure out something new. And they always eventually come back since he's never able to permanently get rid of them.
Edited by M84 on Nov 26th 2019 at 10:34:50 PM
Disgusted, but not surprisedI don't really think the scene overall is treated comically. Maybe there's like a second where Strange's deaths come quick enough that it might get a little laugh, but the overall scene before and after that point is quite grim, and the deaths slow down enough that you still feel the weight of how painful each one might be.
The end of the scene is definitely treated as triumphant, but that's not the same as humorous.
Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Nov 26th 2019 at 7:37:44 AM
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I honestly thought I was going insane for a second. Like, I really thought I'd misjudged the scene that badly.
Dormammu is objectively powerful, but I really find it hard to focus on that when his "defeat" is played at least partially for laughs. None of the things I personally love about the ending on paper come across in the scene because of the tone they chose.
Edited by GNinja on Nov 26th 2019 at 2:42:27 PM
Kaze ni Nare!Man, I want Shuma Gorath in the MCU so badly.
I with Tony was still around, too. The juxtaposition between Strange going "this is a creature outside our understanding - you can't adapt it, incorporate it, or out tech it. Only fight it" - and Tony going "there's nothing I can't brain our way out of, we can't beat it unless I get inside its head" with disastrous results would've been great.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Nov 26th 2019 at 6:40:22 AM

Or doing something batshit insane, which could only work so many times.
Wake me up at your own risk.