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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#112851: Nov 21st 2019 at 1:08:49 PM

[up][up]We've had this conversation before, and that reading of the film requires you to make a lot of assumptions about how narratives work, how character development must work, and whether that is even the lesson Tony needs to learn, if he even needs to learn a lesson.

Saying that the film must do Y because it did X is creating a false dichotomy.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Nov 21st 2019 at 2:11:23 AM

eligram Since: Sep, 2009 Relationship Status: In denial
#112852: Nov 21st 2019 at 1:13:37 PM

Holy cow!!! I just tought on an amazing What if? episode.

The Avegers movie... but where the phase one villains won in their respective movies.

We would have Iron Monger as Iron Man, Red Skull, who defeated Cap, but he managed to make the plane crash and so it was Skull the one frozen, and found by the Hydra agents in SHIELD, the Abomination in place of Hulk and Loki for Thor, maybe with Thor brainwashed by Thanos and as the leader of the invasion.

It would be interesting how all those villains would unite and "save the world".

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#112853: Nov 21st 2019 at 1:14:51 PM

Damn, that's actually a great idea, especially Red Skull being found by the HYDRA agents within SHIELD.

MrSeyker Since: Apr, 2011
#112854: Nov 21st 2019 at 1:22:38 PM

The Hellcarrier in AOS is easily one of its most triumphant moments so f anyone that has an issue with that.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#112855: Nov 21st 2019 at 1:25:07 PM

The problem is, though, that's not what happens. He doesn't decide he knows best "over the wishes of his team," because his team doesn't know what he's doing. Only Bruce knows and Bruce agrees with him. The team only objects later on because it created Ultron, which was the first they heard of what Tony had done.

You're right, I misremembered what happened. That changes the problem to "Tony was secretive about what he was doing with the rest of his team".

We've had this conversation before, and that reading of the film requires you to make a lot of assumptions about how narratives work, how character development must work, and whether that is even the lesson Tony needs to learn, if he even needs to learn a lesson.

Saying that the film must do Y because it did X is creating a false dichotomy.

Films can work in a lot of different ways, there's no one right way to do something when it comes to art. But there is, well, an art to writing narratives, you can't just do whatever you want and have it be satisfying. To clarify what I said a bit more, the two things I outlined are just the most straightforward ways to resolve what the film set up, maybe there were others, but not what Ao U actually did. Having Tony do the exact same thing that caused the problem except it works "because reasons" is not particularly good writing and was the big reason why the film just tanked for me in the third act, because it felt totally off from a narrative standpoint. It felt like a narrative decision that was made entirely because they needed to create Vision somehow for future films, and not because it was good for the story they were trying to tell.

That all being said I do admit it's been some time since I watched Ao U, so it's possible that my memory is a bit foggy and I'm not properly articulating the problem.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Nov 21st 2019 at 5:38:44 AM

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#112856: Nov 21st 2019 at 1:30:04 PM

" in spite of taking the opposite tone approach a lot of the time."

I call this director excess, Bv S and sydner problem is that he dosent have and editor who tone down all is stuff, Wheedon kinda suffer the same in this movie, for zack is priorotizing visual symbolism over story coherency and in wheedon is allowing is dialogue heavy overtake everything and rushing to the next scene.

I also call this the george lucas syndrome for obvious reasons.

" Thor's hot tub vision is at least relevant to AOU, as the Vision ends up having the Mind Stone, "

Which end matter very little aside of another stuff to add to the universe, and is mind stuff power dosent do anything but being a laser beam to kill ultron mooks, also AOU cant breath in part because is wastes is time setting up other stuff: Infinity war, civil war, etc.

"The Hellcarrier in AOS is easily one of its most triumphant moments so f anyone that has an issue with that. "

Is one step to be a deus ex machina, it destroy any tension it build and it make cap look stupid, it feel a "make good moment" for the sake of it.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#112857: Nov 21st 2019 at 1:31:18 PM

Bv S had the problem of just feeling overly indulgent in that sense. To me when I watch the "bad future Batman" scene I don't even get the impression that it's trying to set up for future films and overdid it, it just wants to have a cool scene of Batman being cool regardless of whether it's good or relevant for the story of the film.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#112858: Nov 21st 2019 at 1:33:20 PM

The "Avengers but they're the villains" is an amazing idea. Maybe rather than Nick Fury as Director of SHIELD it also has Alexander Pierce as Director ahead of schedule. The Winter Soldier and Rumlow (a.k.a Crossbones) providing the additional roles as the equivalents of Hawkeye and Black Widow respectively. You could keep Son of Coul and Hill as the Token Good Teammate members of the bunch.

For bonus points the AIM Vice-President from Iron Man 3 could be President in this timeline.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
MrSeyker Since: Apr, 2011
#112859: Nov 21st 2019 at 1:34:21 PM

[up]x3 In no way does the Hellcarrier save undermine Cap.

Its the ultimate expression of point of the whole movie, of the Avengers coming together and making a difference to save the lives.

Its great.

Edited by MrSeyker on Nov 21st 2019 at 1:36:53 AM

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#112860: Nov 21st 2019 at 1:35:20 PM

[up][up]Of course, that could only would work if Cap end it vormin instead of red skull......

[up]Ultron pretty much make the threat to doom all the people in sokovia, cap said he will save it.....and it dosent, he just punch ultrobots and move the people, when confront with the fact he cant save them he just stuck there and helicarrier who show out of nowhere(unless you see AOS) come to save the day and reduce ultron.

Is complete unearned and shift the tension to avenger smashing.

Edited by unknowing on Nov 21st 2019 at 5:37:05 AM

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#112861: Nov 21st 2019 at 1:36:33 PM

Wouldn't that be the Thunderbolts?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#112862: Nov 21st 2019 at 1:37:47 PM

Hellcarrier?

You mean the Valiant

edit: > Ultron pretty much make the threat to doom all the people in sokovia, cap said he will save it.....and it dosent, he just punch ultrobots and move the people, when confront with the fact he cant save them he just stuck there and helicarrier who show out of nowhere(unless you see AOS) come to save the day and reduce ultron.

Having a hard time reading this but your making it sound like he was just standing around until it showed up,which is just silly

Edited by Ultimatum on Nov 21st 2019 at 9:41:45 AM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#112863: Nov 21st 2019 at 1:42:21 PM

Ideally this whole scheme is still called "Avengers" in this timeline, but I'd probably call the episode "Dark Avengers".

Although if you follow the rabbit hole back to Captain Marvel (which establishes the Avengers Initiative came from Carol's callsign) and apply the logic to that, maybe this evil team would instead be called "The Supremes" in homage to the Supreme Intelligence (which presumably beat Carol in this timeline), which does ring nice for a team of authoritarian mass-murderers.

PS: Ironically, "The Supremes" is how the Ultimate Avengers are (sometimes) called in Brazil.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#112864: Nov 21st 2019 at 1:43:25 PM

So the Dark Avengers or Supreme Power then.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
eligram Since: Sep, 2009 Relationship Status: In denial
#112865: Nov 21st 2019 at 1:43:29 PM

No, Thor hot tub influences him to take Tony's side and create Vision, so it has consecuences in the same movie.

Batman Knightmare, doesn't change anything at all. Bruce was already focused in killing Supes before the knightmare, and is not like he adresses it in the movie. So in that way Thor hot tub is miles better that Batman Knightmare.

As for the Hellicarrier scen in AOU, I like ot more in retrospective when added all the discussion that The Avengers should've killed Vision as soon as the option came.

Imagine if they had the same mentality with Sokovia as soon as Tony says he could destroy it, without trying to find another option that doesn't incluse killing everyone in it first. All those people dead for nothing. And thats what heroes do, first look for alternatives to save everyone, but if all fail, take the shoot. Thing that the both did in AOU and Infinity War.

Edited by eligram on Nov 21st 2019 at 6:00:49 AM

MrSeyker Since: Apr, 2011
#112866: Nov 21st 2019 at 1:49:28 PM

I might hate BVS, but please use the proper name. Its not the Batman nightmare. Its official name is the Knightmare.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#112867: Nov 21st 2019 at 1:54:05 PM

@Draghinazzo

Okay, let me break something down. There are several different types of character archetypes and several different types of lessons that characters can learn to make a satisfying story. There are dynamic characters and static characters. Dynamic characters learn a lesson and change, while static characters teach the lesson and change others.

Tony Stark's character arc in Age of Ultron is that he is a static character whose beliefs are challenged and he goes on a journey to re-affirm that his original beliefs were correct all along. He creates Ultron, and Ultron challenges his vision of himself, but then he realizes that Ultron's creation was flawed in ways that had nothing to do with him, and he makes Vision right, re-affirming that his original stance was correct.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Nov 21st 2019 at 2:57:18 AM

eligram Since: Sep, 2009 Relationship Status: In denial
#112868: Nov 21st 2019 at 1:55:58 PM

The "Avengers but they're the villains" is an amazing idea. Maybe rather than Nick Fury as Director of SHIELD it also has Alexander Pierce as Director ahead of schedule. The Winter Soldier and Rumlow (a.k.a Crossbones) providing the additional roles as the equivalents of Hawkeye and Black Widow respectively. You could keep Son of Coul and Hill as the Token Good Teammate members of the bunch.

Oh yes!!! I was getting some problems thinking who could replace Nat and Clint, but lobe your idea. I would love more Winter Soldier and Crossbone!!

And indeed, that's the idea. Cap would get trasported by the Cosmic Cube instrad of Red Skull, but he sabotaged the plane before that to crash in the ice.

And if you like them more than Iron Monger, you could make the what if with the villains of Iron Man 2, Whiplash as Iron Man and Hammer as Coulson (With his death using the Ex-wife on Thor and failing tongue)

EDIT:[up][up] I knew it had a name!!! Just couldn't remember and didn't bother to check. Fixed.

Edited by eligram on Nov 21st 2019 at 6:00:52 AM

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#112869: Nov 21st 2019 at 1:57:18 PM

"Having a hard time reading this but your making it sound like he was just standing around until it showed up,which is just silly "

More or less, he talked with nat about he isnt going anywhere, nat said something about the view and suddenly, fury comes with the helicarrier, triumphant music and the heroic charge without adressing where in hell that come from.

I mean, without looking AOU, you mind think the whole HYDRA affair did nothing at all if fury can mount another helicarrier like that.

" Tony's side and create Vision, so it has consecuences in the same movie."

He didnt create Vision, he charge the pod and finish the process, which is not really that much all things considered, also the stuff about the stones? it bear no consequence by how things turn out.

" if all fail, take the shoot. Thing that the both did in AOU and Infinity War."

Here is the thing: in Infinity war you have that dichotomy, you can fight thanos or destroy vision and deny him the stone, and considering how close Tony team was close to win before star lord fucking it up both option were valid.

this isnt the same, they have one option(save the people) and it was denied to them, so what the hero do?....nothing, fury come and take that out for them, they have a problem and they write themselves on a corner.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#112870: Nov 21st 2019 at 1:57:30 PM

I still find it amusing that the vision Thor got from Wanda was supposed to hint at Thor: Ragnarok. So everybody thought that film was going be Darker and Edgier and truly show Asgard descend into anarchy.

I'd like to go back in time to when AOU first came out and tell everyone what Ragnarok was really like, because no one would believe me.

Edited by chasemaddigan on Nov 21st 2019 at 4:58:13 AM

eligram Since: Sep, 2009 Relationship Status: In denial
#112871: Nov 21st 2019 at 2:09:39 PM

But that's the thing, in this case, with all they had a the moment, they didn't have another option. It took them some time too see it while trying to think on an alternative, and begrudgingly choose to take that action regardles of killing everyone in Sokovia.

But what I saying is that as heroes, they didn't go with it as soon as the idea came, and that bought them time for Nick Fury to come and say "hey, this is the thing I was talking about before!".

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#112872: Nov 21st 2019 at 2:18:09 PM

> More or less, he talked with nat about he isnt going anywhere, nat said something about the view and suddenly, fury comes with the helicarrier, triumphant music and the heroic charge without adressing where in hell that come from.

here'a the scene

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#112873: Nov 21st 2019 at 2:41:24 PM

Alex here has a bone or two or several to pick with Endgame. TBH this worked better for me than his Far From Home video, partly because I think there's more wrong with Endgame.

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#112874: Nov 21st 2019 at 2:46:55 PM

Seriously what are Vision & Ultron in this continuity?

Still father & son or kinda brothers?

Is Tony his father or his grandad?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#112875: Nov 21st 2019 at 2:49:26 PM

Vision was going to be a new body before they hi jack and tony use the stone again, so is more vision and ultron are brothers, which means tony is their father.

So if wanda and vision are a couple, what it make of tony and wanda?.

did wanda ever think of that? it would be hilarious.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

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