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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

JoLuRo075 Since: Jan, 2019
#112826: Nov 21st 2019 at 10:20:53 AM

[up]Are Agents of Shield still canon?

Edited by JoLuRo075 on Nov 21st 2019 at 10:21:03 AM

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#112827: Nov 21st 2019 at 10:21:34 AM

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#112828: Nov 21st 2019 at 10:22:43 AM

Want an honest answer?

They dont care they exist so they might as well be

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#112829: Nov 21st 2019 at 10:23:18 AM

Agents of SHIELD reveals HYDRA to be an ancient cult that worships Hive, greatly predating the Nazis.

However, Agents of SHIELD also makes it pretty unambigious that HYDRA's ideology is not meaningfully distinct from Nazism. To quote the show, one protagonist, when asked if HYDRA members are Nazis, grins and says "Every last one of them".

Leviticus 19:34
Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#112830: Nov 21st 2019 at 10:23:55 AM

Even if it is, the movies have been completely ignorant of its existence, the same with all the rest of the shows up to this point, so they might as well be non canon.

Wake me up at your own risk.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#112831: Nov 21st 2019 at 10:30:26 AM

Agents acknowledges and references the films, but the films do not acknowledge or reference Agents.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#112832: Nov 21st 2019 at 10:31:37 AM

Unless you count the Helicarrier in Age of Ultron.

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#112833: Nov 21st 2019 at 10:35:01 AM

[up]Didn't we already see the Helicarrier in The Avengers? Or am I missing something?

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#112834: Nov 21st 2019 at 10:44:37 AM

[up] The Helicarrier was a part of SHIELD, which was dismantled at the end of Winter Soldier. That is why when it shows up at the end of AOU, it's a surprise. Fury states that he had a friend pull it out of mothballs for him — that friend being Phil Coulson over in AOS.

Edited by alliterator on Nov 21st 2019 at 10:44:51 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#112835: Nov 21st 2019 at 11:20:07 AM

IIRC, even if we do count it, Agents of SHIELD establishes that Schmidt’s HYDRA was never part of HYDRA classic, but that he just thought their symbol and iconography looked cool and decided to use them.

Classic HYDRA only really has an impact on the HYDRA Cap fought after Schmidt was in space and Zola was dead-but-for-a-deleted-cameo, at which point they integrated whatever ashes were left into themselves.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#112836: Nov 21st 2019 at 11:31:09 AM

IIRC, even if we do count it, Agents of SHIELD establishes that Schmidt’s HYDRA was never part of HYDRA classic, but that he just thought their symbol and iconography looked cool and decided to use them.
I'm pretty sure it was explained that Schmidt basically split HYDRA into two factions — the Nazi HYDRA, which was dedicated to super science conquering the world, and the Traditional HYDRA, which was dedicated to bringing Hive back to conquer the world.

AOS actually featured both — Daniel Whitehall was part of Nazi HYDRA (he was a literal Nazi, too), while Gideon Malick was the more Traditional HYDRA.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#112837: Nov 21st 2019 at 11:41:43 AM

Whenever AOS Hive is referenced, I always think of DC's Hive.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#112838: Nov 21st 2019 at 11:43:47 AM

neither involves bees sad

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#112839: Nov 21st 2019 at 12:04:22 PM

Basically, Hydra is all about conquering the world and establishing totalitarian rule, and will insinuate themselves into whatever political structure seems best suited to that goal. In the 30's and 40's, they made themselves part of Nazi Germany. When that fell through, they set to work making themselves part of S.H.I.E.L.D. instead.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#112840: Nov 21st 2019 at 12:04:56 PM

The helicarrier was pretty much AOU trying to explain the nearly deus ex machina of age of ultron, one of the worst moment of the MCU for sure.

And for hydra.....I dont know, HYDRA is whatever you dont want, that it.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#112841: Nov 21st 2019 at 12:23:15 PM

Nick Fury showing up with a Helicarrier is not a Deus Ex Machina. That's not what the term means. Nick Fury foreshadows earlier he's coming with the big guns while he's talking with the Avengers before the climax, therefore not fitting the actual definition of Deus Ex Machina. It's set-up and pay-off.

Poor set-up and pay-off in a sense, but not Deus Ex Machina.

PS: Fuck Cinema Sins for spreading this misconception like wildfire.

Edited by Gaon on Nov 21st 2019 at 12:23:52 PM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#112842: Nov 21st 2019 at 12:26:25 PM

So are Ultron & Vision more lile brothers here instead of father & son?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#112843: Nov 21st 2019 at 12:37:03 PM

[up][up]That is why I said NEARLY(sorry if that not a word), the set up is so vague that it could mean everythihg: a secret weapon, a new avenger....

I mean, he could pretty much called carol in a final bit to stop ultron, now that would be and awsome what if.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
tiamkara Let’s Have the Dark Courage to Sin Tonight from Augusta, GA Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Let’s Have the Dark Courage to Sin Tonight
#112844: Nov 21st 2019 at 12:42:29 PM

Fuck Cinema Sins in general. Lazy, surface-level, pandering tripe.

Time for Age of Ultron. My problematic fav.

“If you have a message for the devil give it to me and I’ll take it to him.”
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#112845: Nov 21st 2019 at 12:44:41 PM

I didn't think Ao U was as bad as people said until I hit the third act or so and the film just started unraveling, with the resolution to Tony's character arc (if you could even call it that) being the moment the film lost me. In retrospect it has a lot more problems too.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Nov 21st 2019 at 4:54:14 PM

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#112846: Nov 21st 2019 at 12:45:34 PM

Ultron's probably my favorite villain of the second phase.

The legend has returned.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#112847: Nov 21st 2019 at 12:52:18 PM

[up][up]Ao U is pretty much marvel Bv S so to speak: weak villian, is cramped as hell, it have to set upt future film using is time in stuff it can actually do things and a very bad third act, it also have wanda working with nazis and them with tony murder robot son(Making more hilarious, she settle with tony other robot son) and cringy stuff like natasha declaration to bruce.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#112848: Nov 21st 2019 at 12:57:10 PM

AOU has a lot of similar problems in spite of taking the opposite tone approach a lot of the time. In BVS you had the problem of a film that wanted to be taken extremely seriously as a grandiose drama but often shot itself in the foot with the ridiculous, comic book-y things happening all the time as well as some unintentionally hilarious dialogue.

Meanwhile AOU wants to have its cake and eat it too as a movie full of wisecracking and quips but also a serious character study at the same time. However between the already commonly noted issues with tension-deflating jokes, a lot of the humor itself just falls flat because it tries too hard a lot of the time, and in a way that stifles a lot of those serious character beats. That some of it is deliberate as opposed to BVS's Narmfest may doesn't make it much better.

Edited by AlleyOop on Nov 21st 2019 at 3:59:10 PM

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#112849: Nov 21st 2019 at 1:01:38 PM

Tony just plain doesn't have an arc that works.

He makes a serious mistake (albeit one influenced by Wanda) by letting his ego and self-importance get the better of him, and deciding he knows best over the wishes of his team. Then he creates the whole problem of the plot in the process of doing that.

All of that is fine so far, and in a good script it would be resolved by one of two things:

1) Tony realizes his mistake and that he can't just try to do everything himself, and clearly he doesn't actually know what's best 100% of the time and take how his team feels into consideration

2) Tony fails to learn from his mistake, and is punished for it as the narrative shows the negative consequences for his actions.

Instead he just tries the same idea again and it just magically works this time because the plot needed it to. It's really shit. It led to the creation of Vision yes (who's very well-liked), but the whole process of his creation was bullshit and terrible writing.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#112850: Nov 21st 2019 at 1:04:31 PM

I resent the comparison of AOU to BVS. For one thing, I like almost all of the characters AOU, when I dislike everyone but Wonder Woman in BVS.

For another thing, for all his flaws, Ultron is a waaaaaay better villain than Luthor and his evil plan makes a hell of a lot more sense than Luthor's.

AOU's pacing problem is that it goes by too fast, it doesn't allow time for the characters or the story to breathe. BVS's pacing problems are the fact it was supposed to be over three hours long and most of the connective tissue was cut from it, so it makes no sense, and also it abruptly stops to give you a dream sequence for another film. Thor's hot tub vision is at least relevant to AOU, as the Vision ends up having the Mind Stone, but Bruce's Knightmare serves absolutely no purpose in BVS.

He makes a serious mistake (albeit one influenced by Wanda) by letting his ego and self-importance get the better of him, and deciding he knows best over the wishes of his team.
The problem is, though, that's not what happens. He doesn't decide he knows best "over the wishes of his team," because his team doesn't know what he's doing. Only Bruce knows and Bruce agrees with him. The team only objects later on because it created Ultron, which was the first they heard of what Tony had done.

When Tony tries again, they object because of Ultron, but Tony's original plan was perfectly fine. What wrecked Tony's plan wasn't Tony's hubris, but the AI inside the Mind Stone. Once that was integrated into JARVIS, it worked fine.

Edited by alliterator on Nov 21st 2019 at 1:07:20 AM


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