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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#112801: Nov 20th 2019 at 10:33:05 PM

HYDRA were Nazis. They were just a splinter group that thought they should be in charge instead of Hitler.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#112802: Nov 20th 2019 at 10:36:54 PM

This isn't the only time they changed stuff around to avoid mentioning Nazis. For example, they changed Zemo's backstory from being a Nazi to being a Sokovian soldier.

MCU Cap is more or less the only version of Cap that we never actually see fight a Nazi.

Edited by M84 on Nov 21st 2019 at 2:37:45 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#112803: Nov 20th 2019 at 10:41:45 PM

[up][up]They are nazis in the sense of being in nazi germany but they are not nazi in the sense they are hitler servant fighting for germany and the aryal idea.

It sound weird distintion but it counts.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#112804: Nov 20th 2019 at 11:29:59 PM

And that was Thor the 1st watched. Yeah, you know what? That was actually pretty neat. Not great, you can probably say it has some of that Phase 1 rust about it, the Dutch angles are out of hand, but I still had a good time. Respectable intro to our boy Thor, and definitely better than TIH or Iron Man 2. Sadly it would take six years for him to actually have an intriguing arc again.

Edited by AyyItsMidnight on Nov 20th 2019 at 11:30:44 AM

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#112805: Nov 20th 2019 at 11:39:28 PM

[up][up] They believed in Nazi ideology, but were a cult around Schmidt rather than around Hitler. HYDRA was essentially just pulling a coup that failed when the Allies got involved. There's no indication that they ever stopped following Nazi doctrine.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Nov 20th 2019 at 11:41:08 AM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#112806: Nov 20th 2019 at 11:55:45 PM

Aside from them having non-white members in the present.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#112807: Nov 21st 2019 at 12:32:50 AM

[up][up]Eventually they said HYDRA was created because they belive mankind cant be trusted and used nazism as way to forcely strip eveyrone on their freedom.

They are nazis, but more in the "put a boot in your face" and "death camp are a little too much, just brainwashing would do the trick".

In short, they are enough nazis to punch them in the face and feel good about it but not enough to use swastica or saying white power or any of that shit, weird? sure but is how it is.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#112808: Nov 21st 2019 at 12:36:01 AM

I swear this meme will never not put a smile on my face. [lol]

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#112809: Nov 21st 2019 at 12:39:22 AM

In which case they aren't Nazis (anymore). White supremacy and nationalism are two of the core tenets of Nazism, colloquial usage aside.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
tiamkara Let’s Have the Dark Courage to Sin Tonight from Augusta, GA Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Let’s Have the Dark Courage to Sin Tonight
#112810: Nov 21st 2019 at 1:43:28 AM

Guardians of the Galaxy is still the best MCU movie. That’s all I got to say about that one. Age of Ultron tomorrow!

“If you have a message for the devil give it to me and I’ll take it to him.”
AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#112811: Nov 21st 2019 at 2:22:20 AM

And because I gave into temptation, I went and watched Thor: The Dark World. Alright, so that wasn't very good. The complaints often lodged against it are justified; the earthbound characters really all just suck, the color grading in places (particularly London during the finale and Svartalfheim) is...unappealling, Thor has nary an interesting arc, Frigga is underused and then killed off (gz Endgame for at least improving in this department), Malekith aka These Fucks are nothing villains, etc. That being said, I didn't come out totally hating it. There are enough moments, lines, action beats and shots to keep it afloat. On that note, Loki is rather good throughout, getting the best moments (and the best gag what with shifting into Steve Rogers). I won't be racing to watch this again but when all's said and done, I don't think this is actually the worst movie in the MCU, nor is it even the worst thing I've willingly seen this year.

And with that, I've done it. I've seen every movie in the Marvel Cinematic Universe! And all before the decade is complete, all before Phase 4 begins with Black Widow. Just gotta make myself catch up with the TV/Netflix shows now...

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#112812: Nov 21st 2019 at 4:07:55 AM

The worst film is The Incredible Hulk. It's pretty much bereft of redeeming elements, it just feels like any dour, bland action movie. Tim Roth does not come close to carrying it.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#112813: Nov 21st 2019 at 6:16:33 AM

It's also the most superfluous movie. As mentioned, even The Dark World has some relevance.

Edited by M84 on Nov 21st 2019 at 10:16:52 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#112814: Nov 21st 2019 at 6:21:30 AM

Incredible Hulk does introduce General Ross who becomes a somewhat important character in Civil War. I think the fight between Hulk and Abomination is also mentioned in Luke Cage.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#112815: Nov 21st 2019 at 6:40:17 AM

I actually like Edward Norton better in the role then Mark Ruffalo. I felt like he fit the character better. I also thought Betty was a very good love interest and that she and Banner had great chemistry. At least better than him and Black Widow.

Edited by Bullman on Nov 21st 2019 at 8:40:50 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#112816: Nov 21st 2019 at 6:40:25 AM

Honestly, even the worst of the MCU is better than a lot of bad comic book movies, so I don’t hate any of them.

The legend has returned.
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#112817: Nov 21st 2019 at 6:40:31 AM

Hydra in the movies aren't Nazis. Fascists, sure, but they never show any signs of racial supremacy, not even Red Skull himself (in STARK contrast to his comic book counterpart). Them having members of various nationalities in the present only emphasizes that.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#112818: Nov 21st 2019 at 6:45:42 AM

I didn't really care about Betty or banner in TIH because the film never properly establishes their characters or gives me a reason to care about them. It's the reason why it's so hard to care about anything in that film. Ang lee's hulk film, flawed as it may have been, at least managed to do that reasonably well.

IronScope STOP. RESETTING. MY. DISPLAY. OPTIONS. from Somewhere Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
STOP. RESETTING. MY. DISPLAY. OPTIONS.
#112819: Nov 21st 2019 at 7:31:03 AM

I'd call Iron Man 3 the most superfluous MCU movie. The only character introduced in it to reappear is a three-second cameo in Endgame and the resolution of Tony retiring is immediately undone the next time he appears.

This place is careless.
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#112820: Nov 21st 2019 at 7:44:59 AM

[up] Yeah, I kind of agree with that. The only other bit I think it adds is that it explains why Tony and Pepper weren't together during Civil War, but Tony sums up everything the audience needed to know at that point. It also establishes that Tony has some lingering trauma from the events of the first Avengers film, which leads to his actions in Age of Ultron and Civil War.

It probably would've been more relevant to the overall plot had it been Tony's last hurrah in the series, but that's not the case. Of course, the Mandarin's going to appear for real in Shang-Chi, so we might get a reference to the events of Iron Man 3 there so audiences won't be confused. I wouldn't be surprised if Trevor Slattery appeared again in custody of the Ten Rings, just to establish that he stole the Mandarin's identity for those who haven't seen All Hail the King.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#112821: Nov 21st 2019 at 7:50:57 AM

Mark Ruffalo made the character charming while Norton was just kinda dull through the thing.

My dad does love Ruffalo.

Edited by slimcoder on Nov 21st 2019 at 7:51:31 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#112822: Nov 21st 2019 at 8:57:55 AM

Hydra in the movies aren't Nazis. Fascists, sure, but they never show any signs of racial supremacy, not even Red Skull himself (in STARK contrast to his comic book counterpart).

Movie Red Skull is essentially Voldemort: the leader of a regime built upon racism and a sense of superiority, which he himself uses as an excuse to prop himself up as a person as superior to his group as they consider themselves superior to others.

This isn’t speculation: it’s explicitly part of the exposition in the First Avenger. Schmidt’s backstory involves him believing so much in the Nazi ideal of the superior man / master race that he became obsessed with becoming even grander than that: the master of the master race. He then went on to build HYDRA as “Nazis, but better, because it puts me on top.”

He’s an egomaniac who built a cult around himself specifically, but that doesn’t make him not a Nazi. He never stopped being one.

Them having members of various nationalities in the present only emphasizes that

The question wasn’t whether HYDRA ever drifted from Nazism (it’s repeatedly noted throughout later installments that post-Schmidt HYDRA is a very different beast), it was whether Cap had ever fought Nazi’s throughout their career.

Whether they’re more akin to to Neo-Nazis In he present isn’t really as important to what’s being asked, because Cap also fought them before that shift took place.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Nov 21st 2019 at 9:00:53 AM

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#112823: Nov 21st 2019 at 8:59:24 AM

Movie Red Skull is also Voldemort because he's a noseless gonk with magic powers that is basically immortal, so that's pretty funny.

The legend has returned.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#112824: Nov 21st 2019 at 9:46:43 AM

MCU Hydra was a fascist cult that turned into a fascist Nazi science cult that turned into a fascist cult again.

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#112825: Nov 21st 2019 at 10:01:16 AM

Yeah, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. retconned things by revealing that HYDRA was formed hundreds of years ago to worship Hive, the original Inhuman. So, they're not technically a neo-Nazi group since they predate the Nazis by a large margin.

On the other hand, the modern incarnation of HYDRA was descended from the Nazi splinter group, and they still practice fascist policies. So it's still cool to see Cap punch them in the face.


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