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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

MrSeyker Since: Apr, 2011
#112601: Nov 18th 2019 at 10:20:42 AM

Nothing new under the sun. Alan has hot takes for everything.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#112602: Nov 18th 2019 at 10:20:59 AM

summary for those who dont want to click through twitter

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#112603: Nov 18th 2019 at 10:26:33 AM

I think the impact of superheroes on popular culture is both tremendously embarrassing and not a little worrying. While these characters were originally perfectly suited to stimulating the imaginations of their twelve or thirteen year-old audience, today’s franchised übermenschen, aimed at a supposedly adult audience, seem to be serving some kind of different function, and fulfilling different needs. Primarily, mass-market superhero movies seem to be abetting an audience who do not wish to relinquish their grip on (a) their relatively reassuring childhoods, or (b) the relatively reassuring 20th century. The continuing popularity of these movies to me suggests some kind of deliberate, self-imposed state of emotional arrest, combined with an numbing condition of cultural stasis that can be witnessed in comics, movies, popular music and, indeed, right across the cultural spectrum...I would also remark that save for a smattering of non-white characters (and non-white creators) these books and these iconic characters are still very much white supremacist dreams of the master race. In fact, I think that a good argument can be made for D.W. Griffith’s Birth of a Nation as the first American superhero movie, and the point of origin for all those capes and masks.

Essentially he finds their success embarrassing and a sign of society’s arrested development, with accusations of racism to boot.

Edited by Beatman1 on Nov 18th 2019 at 1:27:42 PM

TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#112604: Nov 18th 2019 at 10:27:53 AM

[up] Cool story, Mr. Moore. tongue

(This has been another example of an old man yelling at a cloud.)

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#112605: Nov 18th 2019 at 10:31:21 AM

What the hell, are we in a middle of an unknown plague that causes old men to scream at clouds?

What's next, the dead are going to come up and express their disapproval too? Can't get any older than a literal decayed skeleton.

Edited by fredhot16 on Nov 18th 2019 at 10:33:33 AM

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#112606: Nov 18th 2019 at 10:35:22 AM

Yeesh, that was the most rancid take yet. I already disagreed with the very premise of his argument: that serious stories for adults cannot be written about colorful superheroes with fantastical powers, but then he swerved into the racism talk and completely fell apart.

TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#112607: Nov 18th 2019 at 10:40:50 AM

What's next, the dead are going to come up and express their disapproval too? Can't get any older than a literal decayed skeleton.

Maybe? Stranger things have happened.

Real talk though, I really don't see the problem Alan Moore has this time. I would argue that superhero movies are giving us a chance to know more about heroes and villains we never knew too much about or didn't have the time for it.

Like, how many have known about the Guardians of the Galaxy before the movie was coming? And how many knew about the Eternals before anyone even danced around the idea of a movie for them? If anything, this is more like an evolution to how future storytellers get ideas. Plus, we are getting representation from other spectrums, like Kamala Khan was only around since, what, 2013 or 2014? No way she's getting to show up, right? Boom, Disney+ show.

Edited by TargetmasterJoe on Nov 18th 2019 at 1:42:48 PM

MrSeyker Since: Apr, 2011
#112608: Nov 18th 2019 at 10:42:14 AM

Like I said, this is Alan Moore. The man has made a career out of yelling at things.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#112609: Nov 18th 2019 at 10:43:01 AM

I knew about DC's Old Gods,but I don't have a clue about the Eternals,I assume they're sort of similar,sorta

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#112610: Nov 18th 2019 at 10:54:45 AM

Moore himself has kind of a poor track record on a lot of things, so a hot take like this isnt surprising. I wouldn't pay him much mind.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#112611: Nov 18th 2019 at 10:55:42 AM

Scorcese: I have legitimate concerns about the monopolization of the industry.

Viewers: How could anyone say anything meaner?

Alan Moore: Hold my beer; Superheroes are literally the Klan.

Eh, it’s no surprise to me considering Watchmen contains a hero whose identity is pretty much “Lynch-Man”. No, he’s not a guy with David Lynch themed powers.

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#112612: Nov 18th 2019 at 10:55:50 AM

Not sure why this is even being brought to our attention anyway.

[up]But is there one like that?

Edited by fredhot16 on Nov 18th 2019 at 10:57:48 AM

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#112613: Nov 18th 2019 at 11:04:35 AM

What's next, the dead are going to come up and express their disapproval too? Can't get any older than a literal decayed skeleton.

Tom Clancy keeps making (bad) video games from beyond the grave, so anything is possible.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#112614: Nov 18th 2019 at 11:05:44 AM

[up]Maybe he's actually immortal and faked his death. Has anybody checked his grave recently?

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#112615: Nov 18th 2019 at 11:07:33 AM

I already disagreed with the very premise of his argument: that serious stories for adults cannot be written about colorful superheroes with fantastical powers, but then he swerved into the racism talk and completely fell apart.
I mean, that's definitely not what he was saying, especially since he has written by "serious stories for adults" that included superheroes. Alan Moore is the writer of Watchmen, The Killing Joke, Miracleman, and tons of other "adult" stories that contain superheroes. But I think he's also come to regret his impact, with a lot of his later stories going back to the Silver Age style and making superheroes that are much more idealistic than his previous ones (although he also wrote more somber, pessimistic stories, too).

Moore's problem isn't apparently with the superhero movies themselves, but with their target audience: "mass-market superhero movies seem to be abetting an audience who do not wish to relinquish their grip on (a) their relatively reassuring childhoods, or (b) the relatively reassuring 20th century."

He thinks of this as a bad thing, however, I think of it as a good or neutral thing. People want to be reassured — as one YouTube video put it, Disney is really good at "weaponizing nostalgia." So the MCU movies are weaponized nostalgia for a childhood in which we read comics or watched cartoons, a relatively simpler time in our lives. This isn't even anything new — look at Happy Days or Grease. The MCU just added superheroes to the mix. We've always been reassured by entertainment; Moore just doesn't like it that's it's superheroes.

His statements about race and the overwhelming number of white superheroes is also correct and something lots of people have commented and criticized Marvel and Disney about as well. He takes a bit too far with his reference to Birth of a Nation as the "first superhero movie" (it wasn't, it was clearly an adventure film), but his overall point is solid: having 99% of the superheroes on screen be white and male is a white supremacist's wet dream.

Edited by alliterator on Nov 18th 2019 at 11:08:46 AM

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#112616: Nov 18th 2019 at 11:08:10 AM

[up][up]Do we want to? I’m worried what we’d find.

Edited by Beatman1 on Nov 18th 2019 at 2:10:59 PM

ComicFan Since: Sep, 2016
#112617: Nov 18th 2019 at 11:12:12 AM

Runaways season 3 trailer which will also be the final season

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#112618: Nov 18th 2019 at 11:28:11 AM

[up]Where are we in that show, if you don't mind?

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#112619: Nov 18th 2019 at 11:42:11 AM

His argument doesn’t seem to add up

The MCU has a far larger audience than comics have enjoyed for decades now

A lot of people are being introduced to the characters, not wallowing in nostalgia

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#112620: Nov 18th 2019 at 11:47:19 AM

His argument doesn’t seem to add up

The MCU has a far larger audience than comics have enjoyed for decades now

Except how many people watched X-Men: The Animated Series? Batman: The Animated Series? Darkwing Duck? The Burton Batman movies? The Raimi Spider-Man movies? Power Rangers? Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles? Superheroes are larger than just comic books and have been for a while. Superheroes are soaked into this country — even if you've never read a comic book, you know who Superman and Batman and Spider-Man are.

You know how some people have nostalgia for a '50s that never existed? This is the same thing. Watching superhero films is a reassurance that superheroes exist, pinging a kind of nostalgia in ourselves for a time in which we were younger and believed in such things.

Edited by alliterator on Nov 18th 2019 at 11:50:56 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#112621: Nov 18th 2019 at 11:53:25 AM

[up][up]

He never said they weren't.

He's saying that the genre is abetting the part that uses their fandom as an excuse to stay comfortable in the privilege of nostalgia. This is actually something that's being made aware of a lot more in today's fandoms: the fact that fandoms are full of traditionalists who won't let go of the past and make things difficult for new and different people with new and different perspectives is an actual, serious problem in pop culture today, and dismissing someone bringing up as "old man yell at cloud lol" is counter-productive at best, enabling in favor of something that needs to change at worse.

Racism (and sexism) is absolutely a part of that - the most visible part, one should argue - and given all the shit we've gotten in the last few years with mainstays of fanbases, including the MCU's fanbase, throwing fits and making national news for railing against anything inclusive that upsets that sense of comfort and nostalgia - black superheroes, female superheroes, etc and so on - trying to claim he's just whistling smoke for bringing it up is, to be blunt, kind of an awful perspective to have.

That said, where I think he's mistaken is his belief that the current model isn't taking steps to circumvent that. It's true, yes, the MCU has historically gone for old fashioned white and male protagonists and has only really in the two years taken steps to actually circumvent that, but they are trying and the MCU is run by people - at least on a creative level - interested in getting rid of the millstone of the past and making the brand more inclusive and a stronger experience for everyone.

He's looking at the symptoms and not really paying attention to the cures being administered. But that's because the symptoms are bad in the first place.

His criticism would have more oomph if Perlmutter was still in charge. Perlmutter is basically the archetype of what Moore is talking about: a traditionalist who stays that way, even though it negatively effects society, because it's both the way he is used to and the way he knows how to make money.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Nov 18th 2019 at 11:57:34 AM

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#112623: Nov 18th 2019 at 12:39:40 PM

We apologize for our ignorance, KnownUnkown-sama. We are preparing hara-kiri as we speak.

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#112624: Nov 18th 2019 at 12:39:41 PM

I know Alan Moore's important to comic book history and therefore has more say in how comics apply to culture than Scorsese and the like, but it still has to be said: Okay, boomer.

The legend has returned.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#112625: Nov 18th 2019 at 12:50:15 PM

Don’t taunt him

He is a great and powerful magician and once blew someone’s head up

Forever liveblogging the Avengers

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