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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#112401: Nov 12th 2019 at 4:28:34 PM

I actually said the same thing after watching BP myself.

Zemo was something of a eye opener for T'challa about not only revenge, but that you have to be better.

He carried that lesson into his own movie clearly, especially once he had the full context of what Eric had been through. I think that if the situation hadn't forced him to go for the lethal blow, he'd have very much tried to stop Eric with killing him.

And ever with what he did do, he still had the capability to save him.

One Strip! One Strip!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#112402: Nov 12th 2019 at 4:31:16 PM

T'Challa was just having the shittiest week, wasn't he? The plot of Black Panther happened, what, a few days after Civil War?

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#112403: Nov 12th 2019 at 4:41:22 PM

At least he managed to move past revenge.

Unlike say the Afro Samurai. He completely gave himself to revenge & left himself with nothing.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#112404: Nov 12th 2019 at 6:01:32 PM

Though wasn't T'Challa sparing Zemo less about moving past revenge, and more about seeing that, since Zemo wants to kill himself now this his plan's finished, keeping him alive and in custody is the greater punishment?

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#112405: Nov 12th 2019 at 6:19:11 PM

It was both. T'challa was initially intending to kill Bucky when he believed the Winter Soldier was responsible for killing his father. Learning Zemo did it, then seeing Zemo is likewise a man turned selfish and shallow by his pursuit of revenge, awakens T'challa to what he risks becoming and so relents.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#112406: Nov 12th 2019 at 6:44:34 PM

That and seeing Stark fly off the deep end on his own revenge bender.

In a horrifically twisted way, Zemo helped T'challa become a better king.

He saw what the pursuit of revenge does to people. He saw it in Zemo, he saw it in Stark, and he would later see it in Eric.

That's why he was able to stop his own cycle, and keep stopping it.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Nov 12th 2019 at 7:47:03 AM

One Strip! One Strip!
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#112407: Nov 12th 2019 at 6:44:35 PM

[up][up][up] I mean, this was what T'Challa said moments before he apprehended Zemo:

"Vengeance has consumed you, it is consuming them. I'm done letting it consume me."

It's important line that help builds on the central theme of Civil War.

Edited by chasemaddigan on Nov 12th 2019 at 9:44:52 AM

AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#112408: Nov 12th 2019 at 6:49:24 PM

Ironically by wising up from being so heated by vengeance and realizing what's going on between Steve and Tony (the latter of which is hella pissed at Steve and Bucky), T'Challa opted for an even worse punishment for Zemo given the circumstances. TBH he's still probably my favorite part of the movie.

Edited by AyyItsMidnight on Nov 12th 2019 at 6:51:20 AM

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#112409: Nov 12th 2019 at 7:05:56 PM

Well of course its a worse punishment.

As Optimus Prime once said, death is the easy way out & Zemo doesn't deserve it.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#112410: Nov 12th 2019 at 7:10:19 PM

And Optimus Prime would know, considering he's died so many times.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#112411: Nov 12th 2019 at 8:00:39 PM

I just can't get behind the logic of keeping someone alive as a form of punishment just because "death is too easy". Don't get me wrong, there's a million fates worse than death, but unless you have an actual use for the criminal in question, the only practical effect is putting a pointless burden on the taxpayers to preserve what is essentially a piece of meat.

Not to mention if they actually escape confinement, which happens every other week in comic book land and will be happening in the upcoming Falcon and WinSol show, there's gonna be trouble.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Nov 12th 2019 at 11:02:10 AM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#112412: Nov 12th 2019 at 8:02:37 PM

That's a discussion kind of beyond the scope of this thread. It gets into the whole death penalty discussion.

Disgusted, but not surprised
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#112413: Nov 12th 2019 at 8:05:12 PM

T'Challa isn't an executioner & neither are heroes.

Simply put, they don't decide who dies.

Edited by slimcoder on Nov 12th 2019 at 8:05:37 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#112414: Nov 12th 2019 at 8:07:10 PM

Reminds me of the people who blame Batman for not killing the Joker.

Disgusted, but not surprised
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#112415: Nov 12th 2019 at 8:09:02 PM

Yeah, I've got to say "we're wasting taxpayer dollars by not killing criminals when we have the chance" is the kind of assertion that's asking for a long, deraily conversation that'll just take over the thread.

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#112416: Nov 12th 2019 at 8:13:11 PM

Then allow me to derail it in a different way!

Steve vs. T'Challa, who would win?

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#112417: Nov 12th 2019 at 8:15:01 PM

I remember being taught when I was younger that arrest rates aren't inflated and yet our jails need to be "drained of overflow". One of those things that on closer look reveals a contradiction.

Anyway, due process exists for a reason. Don't like it, go watch that one terrifying Wonder Woman pilot.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Nov 12th 2019 at 8:15:11 AM

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#112418: Nov 12th 2019 at 8:15:18 PM

I'm not talking about a superhero playing judge, jury, and executioner. Obviously that's a slippery slope that leads to things like the main villains of Iron Fist S2 and Jessica Jones S3, or less-favorable takes on The Punisher. I'm just disagreeing with the notion that keeping someone alive as a Fate Worse than Death is practical beyond petty emotional vindication.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Nov 12th 2019 at 11:18:04 AM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#112419: Nov 12th 2019 at 8:17:43 PM

[up][up][up]

...

On ability alone, I think it depends on the situation and the context and whether one of them has been drinking their milk. Civil War and Infinity War give off the impression that T'Challa's brand of "enhanced human" is around the same as Cap and Bucky's, so they'd all be around even I suppose.

But if they're even, I think T'Challa's shiny new suit then gives him the edge. Cap has the shield, but T'Challa's suit nullifies it's offensive advantage, plus T'Challa can cut it. It'd take forever to cut through it, but it's theoretically possible.

[up][up] Not to mention the unsettling kerfluffle about prison institutions and how they profit off of maximizing intake and capacity, historically leading (at least in America) to many being imprisoned or having inflated sentences unfairly because it's profitable, rather than imprisoned unnecessarily despite being costly. The "these people are a drain on our economy" ideology is one of those things that keeps people from being empathetic to the situation.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Nov 12th 2019 at 8:23:59 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#112420: Nov 12th 2019 at 8:18:01 PM

Uh V-Shield vs V-Claws I guess.

Edited by slimcoder on Nov 12th 2019 at 8:20:11 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#112421: Nov 12th 2019 at 8:21:01 PM

[up][up]That too.

Best Steve can hope for is getting T'challa in a chokehold too quick to be pulled off, otherwise he's completely outclassed gear-wise.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Nov 12th 2019 at 8:24:01 AM

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#112422: Nov 12th 2019 at 8:27:33 PM

Assuming they're just dropped into a featureless void to fight it out, T'Challa kicks Steve's ass.

Steve can't realistically hurt him unless he, like, gets one of Black Widow's stun guns or something.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Nov 12th 2019 at 11:30:06 AM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#112423: Nov 12th 2019 at 8:30:57 PM

I just rewatched Captain Marvel on Disney+. I think I liked it even better this time.

I noticed a lot of moments where it became apparent that Carol was deliberately suppressing her emotions. Whenever she talks to Yon-Rogg on the phone or whenever she sees something that has to do with her backstory, her face turns blank, as if she's trying to push her emotions down.

She also doesn't trust Talos right away — even after she learns the truth about Yon-Rogg and the Kree, she still thinks the Skrulls are terrorists or at least as bad as the Kree are until she sees Talos's family and realized they were why he wanted to find the lab. That's when she really switches sides.

Edited by alliterator on Nov 12th 2019 at 8:32:40 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#112424: Nov 12th 2019 at 8:35:40 PM

If it's down to just physical abilities and skills...yeah, I'd say the outcome would be a matter of luck. If it comes down to their gear...T'Challa hands down has the advantage. His suit is the pinnacle of Vibranium technology. Steve's shield was made decades ago by people who barely understood Vibranium.

Note that in the comics things are reversed. Comics Cap is "just" peak human while T'Challa is genuinely superhuman thanks to the Herb and a bonafide blessing from the Panther God Bast. OTOH, Cap's Shield is actually more durable than Black Panther's stuff since it's made not from Vibranium but from an alloy of Vibranium, iron, and an unknown third catalyst.

Edited by M84 on Nov 13th 2019 at 12:39:10 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#112425: Nov 12th 2019 at 8:41:39 PM

Assuming they're just dropped into a featureless void to fight it out, T'Challa kicks Steve's ass.

Steve can't realistically hurt him unless he, like, gets one of Black Widow's stun guns or something.

Though lets be fair. If Steve's reaction to an army of aliens led by a dude who can kick Thor's ass is to strap his shield to her arm and walk forward to meet him, you can damn well bet that even if T'challa kicks his ass twelve ways from Sunday, he's still gonna make the king work for it.

It'll be a hell of a fight through raw stubbornness if nothing else.

One Strip! One Strip!

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