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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#112051: Nov 5th 2019 at 5:35:26 PM

I just got the the urge to watch Daredevil season 2. On one hand, I can't get enough of Bernthal Punisher and legal drama.

On another hand, I don't think I've been properly exposed to the awfulness of the Hand. So I've got that to anticipate.

Edited by fredhot16 on Nov 5th 2019 at 5:37:26 AM

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#112052: Nov 5th 2019 at 5:43:33 PM

The first few eps of DD season 2 are legitimately some damn gripping television. Castle is super compelling and I wish they had made the whole season about him.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#112053: Nov 5th 2019 at 5:50:04 PM

"You people call me the Punisher, ain't that right? The big bad Punisher. Well here I am. I am the Punisher!"

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#112054: Nov 5th 2019 at 7:09:15 PM

I think the first four episodes of Daredevil Season 2 are probably the best part of the entire MCU-Netflix saga.

I don't hate the rest of the season, it still has some great highlights amidst the dull plot, but the sudden plummet in overall quality is really noticeable.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#112055: Nov 5th 2019 at 10:15:19 PM

Frank telling Matt about his family still gets to me.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Pachylad (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#112056: Nov 6th 2019 at 4:45:16 AM

@Gaon:

Have a video by Kyle Kallgreen that takes auteur theory and cuts it to the quick:

Funny that you post that because Kyle has been 100-ing Scorsese's comments on Twitter atm. No comment on the whole 'this isn't art' or the auteur theory undercurrents but vivaciously stanning the 'Disney/Marvel is hemmorhagaing filmgoing experience and this is bad' take.

I think all the film nerds (worth giving a damn about) that are willing to forgive his "Marvel movies aren't really cinema because they don't take enough risks" (and even the second part of that take is questionable) are doing so because he's pinpointing the current hellscape we're all living in re: the Mouse's grip on film distribution.

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#112057: Nov 6th 2019 at 7:18:34 AM

Tarantino went to war with Disney because he had reserved a specialized 70mm projection theater to show The Hateful Eight and they bullied the theater out of the contract for just one more screen to show The Force Awakens.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#112058: Nov 6th 2019 at 7:54:59 AM

I don't feel as strongly about DD Season 2 but I adore Bernthal's portrayal of the Punisher.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#112059: Nov 6th 2019 at 8:03:05 AM

Maybe the situation is different in the US, but when I look around at my Canadian hometown (although for context, we have a population of a little less than 400,000), there are currently 24 movies showing at various theatres. Want to know how many of them are distributed by Disney? Three. Hell, one of them lists Scorcese as a cast member.

While I am critical of Disney's shady business practices with regards to theatre distribution and access (seriously, I pop into the Disney/Fox thread every now and then to complain, hell, Fox was doing some of this stuff even before the Disney merger), the idea that these practices are making it impossible for any other film to be shown in a theatre is sort of ridiculous.

Many of these films won't make as much as a Marvel or Star Wars movie and aren't being shown on as many screens, but what I think is not being taken into account is the fact that movie tickets now are regularly 10 - 20 bucks a pop. And the commercial theatres make very little of this money, so they have to charge ridiculous prices on concessions in order to stay afloat.

If you're a family of four or a group of friends on a budget, a single trip to the movies can cost upwards of a hundred dollars. It's going to be a rare treat. And you're probably not all going to agree to see something like Hustlers or The Irishman. If you have young kids with you you're going to see something they can watch. Even if everyone's older, you're going to want to see something that everyone can all agree on. This will probably be a movie that looks pretty, or is loud and fast-paced. If it's part of a franchise you like, it's continuing a story you're invested in and is likely to be something you will enjoy based on your past experience.

So of course, those are the movies that make money. While people like Scorcese don't seem to be criticizing viewers directly, the reality is the type of media that sells well will get better funding and distribution. Sometimes, the 'ruining the cinema experience' arguments start to sound really fucking classist to my ears, if I'm going to be completely honest.

Edited by Pseudopartition on Nov 6th 2019 at 10:18:39 AM

ShadowWingLG Since: Dec, 2013
#112060: Nov 6th 2019 at 9:31:20 AM

[up] Yup if you are going to pay 10-15 bucks a ticket you are going to spend that on a movie that's WORTH seeing on the big screen in a theater with all the bells and whistles, most of the auteur films don't lose much between big screen and TV screen, but something like Avatar, Infinity War, Endgame, Star Wars or any of the big franchises those shine on the big screen and worth the ticket cost.

Nvoid82 Since: Apr, 2013
#112061: Nov 6th 2019 at 2:45:58 PM

I feel like a big thing people miss when they think of the MCU and how it relates to the evolution of cinema is that the movie’s individually aren’t what evolves the art of storytelling. The MCU itself is. It is an creatively daring project that changes what kind of stories people expect as “cinema”

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#112062: Nov 6th 2019 at 3:05:09 PM

I mean, having a big cinematic universe can be considered an ambitious project in a sense and I think Marvel's achievement should be commended since they succeeded where most have failed. But the individual films are what make people care about the larger project in the first place, it's very unlikely that the MCU would have ever gotten off the ground if it wasn't for Iron Man 1 giving the MCU a lot of audience goodwill until Avengers came out. If they're not creatively daring or involving individually, them all tying together doesn't really matter. If Marvel hadn't improved significantly after Phase 1 I would not be interested in them whatsoever.

I also think the cinematic universe concept, while cool, has a lot of potential downsides, so I wouldn't really call it a unilaterally positive evolution of cinema.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Nov 6th 2019 at 7:13:46 AM

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#112063: Nov 6th 2019 at 3:11:24 PM

My understanding with the Cinematic Universe concept is that the problem a lot of people trying it have is that they tend to sort of jump the gun on it. For example, the DCCU's second movie, I believe, was a crossover.

The MCU worked in large part because Marvel initially didn't have a ton of faith in the concept and tried to do solo movies first that were sort of adjacent to each other, which built up to a cool crossover movie.

Leviticus 19:34
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#112064: Nov 6th 2019 at 3:15:50 PM

It's true that a lot of them try to jump the gun. Which kind of highlights the problem: obviously most studios want to make money first and foremost. It would be delusional to pretend otherwise. But in order to make that money you need to make films that the audience enjoys. Often the whole cinematic universe mentality is really more about creating a brand they can profit off indefinitely with endless sequels like Marvel does, to the point where they forget they need at least one good movie before they can do that.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Nov 6th 2019 at 7:18:17 AM

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#112065: Nov 6th 2019 at 4:20:15 PM

Essentially, they're too busy seeing the forest to see all the trees. Or trying to make a good knife out of bad steel.

Leviticus 19:34
ShadowWingLG Since: Dec, 2013
#112066: Nov 6th 2019 at 5:23:37 PM

IIRC the idea of a larger cinematic universe was on the board from the start (see the stinger for Iron Man) but in those days Marvel KNEW that of any of the early phase one films bombed that would be it...the MCU would have died right there.

IM 1 became a hit, along with Thor and CAFA the only hiccup was Hulk but that was still successful enough to keep things going till Avengers and the Disney Buyout.

And the failures of every other imitator, the nickname for JL is "Avengers without Phase One" for a reason...

Pachylad (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#112067: Nov 6th 2019 at 6:31:35 PM

Speaking of the artistic merits of Cinematic Universes, from the AV Club: The Avengers was a cinematic event that can never be repeated

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#112068: Nov 6th 2019 at 6:41:04 PM

It's a good description of the climate at the time Avengers 1 came out. I unfortunately can't relate to it since, as I implied earlier, I was unimpressed with phase 1 as a whole and didn't turn out to see Avengers in theaters as a result. When I finally saw it on DVD, I was thoroughly unengaged (so was my brother; whereas I at least tried to finish the film, my brother just up and left because of how bored he was) and didn't find it the least bit compelling.

Looking back on phase 1 as a whole, I'm actually fond of certain movies more than I was prior (I still don't think Thor is excellent, but it's a better film than I gave it credit for at the time), some I dislike much more (mostly The Incredible Hulk; I really don't understand why certain people miss aspects of it or say it's underrated, since it's genuinely one of the worst MCU films).

The Avengers is kind of in the middle for me. When I was watching it again for the first time in a while, I can appreciate certain aspects of it and why it resonated with people the way it did, but I still think that once you get past the "wow" factor of the team-up, it's just ok. Only the third act of the film is all that impressive to me. It doesn't really have much in the way of depth or interesting themes, and in retrospect some of the characterization (like Cap's) is questionable. It's certainly not among my favorite MCU films, cinematic achievement or not.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Nov 6th 2019 at 10:46:48 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#112069: Nov 6th 2019 at 6:42:33 PM

I genuinely haven't really enjoyed any of the Avengers movies. The first was kind of "meh", I hated the Ultron movie, Infinity War was...alright, and I hated the time travel bullshit in Endgame.

I still think IM 1 was the best movie in the MCU.

Edited by M84 on Nov 6th 2019 at 10:43:04 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#112070: Nov 6th 2019 at 6:43:25 PM

Civil War is much closer to what I want from an Avengers film, personally. I was surprised by how compelling it was actually, given how many different characters it was juggling.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#112071: Nov 6th 2019 at 6:44:02 PM

Though oddly enough it was billed as a Captain America movie and not an Avengers movie.

I didn't really like that movie either but more for the basic premise — I've never really liked the whole Headbutting Heroes thing. That and the whole concept of a Marvel Civil War is tainted for me after suffering through the abysmal two comics storylines.

Edited by M84 on Nov 6th 2019 at 10:46:36 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#112072: Nov 6th 2019 at 6:46:37 PM

Ya know I give Bendis shit but at least he's not as offensively awful as Miller can be.

Though granted Bendis can be awful in his own way.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#112073: Nov 6th 2019 at 6:48:22 PM

I understand the general frustration with the concept, but I thought Civil War did it pretty well by making it so that even if you think one "side" is wrong you can at least understand why the characters are making the choices they are and empathize with them to some extent. Unlike, well, the comic book storyline which is near unanimously agreed to be garbage.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#112074: Nov 6th 2019 at 6:48:33 PM

"You think this letter on my head stands for France?"

That was one of the moments that soured me on Millar for good.

[up]Both comic book storylines were awful at that. The second one was arguably worse too.

Edited by M84 on Nov 6th 2019 at 10:50:10 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#112075: Nov 6th 2019 at 6:49:47 PM

Millar apparently stopped being a massive edgelord a while back and started writing much more optimistic stories. Or so I heard, and that was a few years ago. No idea what he's been up to as of late and not that interested in looking into it.


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