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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#111726: Oct 23rd 2019 at 9:55:33 PM

I mean a lot of classical painters were literally just doing their work to get a paycheck because they needed to put food on the table. Same goes for a lot of old stuff that's considered "high art" now.

Michaelangelo famously took a job to paint the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel and proceeded to cover it in dicks, because trolling hasn't actually changed much.

When the Master of Ceremonies complained about all the penises hanging out everywhere, Michaelangelo added him to the painting as a demon with jackass ears, then painted a snake biting him in the dick.

The resulting work is considered one of the greatest masterpieces of the Renaissance era.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#111727: Oct 23rd 2019 at 10:20:13 PM

We even have a trope about this: Magnum Opus Dissonance.

Disgusted, but not surprised
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#111728: Oct 23rd 2019 at 10:21:48 PM

I'm reminded of that episode of The Amazing World of Gumball where the adults ban video-games so kids can read all the "classic & history books" because its more wholesome for children only for Gumball and co to prove that all those beloved classics are just as inappropriate as the video-games they are trying to ban.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#111729: Oct 23rd 2019 at 11:14:03 PM

Also a reminder that Shakespeare wasn't considered "high art" during his day, either. His plays were for the lower classes and he often filled them with puns and sex jokes. In fact, the name of Much Ado About Nothing is, itself, a sex joke.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#111730: Oct 23rd 2019 at 11:18:51 PM

Often the stuff that gets remembered as a masterpiece is something that was never actually intended to be a masterpiece by its creator.

Disgusted, but not surprised
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#111731: Oct 23rd 2019 at 11:53:07 PM

Again I'm reminded of The Castle of Cagliostro which back then was just another entry in a pre-existing franchise and Miyazaki's novice debut.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#111732: Oct 23rd 2019 at 11:57:37 PM

Part of it has something to do with the fact that often the work that is done for a payoff is also put through a lot of editing. Since the creator is mostly just doing it to pay the bills, they aren't going to be that emotionally invested in every single facet of the work.

The trope page description for Magnum Opus Dissonance has a pretty good explanation of it.

There are multiple causes behind this. Creators have different expectations and standards they apply to themselves than the audience and critics do; their definition of a Magnum Opus might simply be the one that was the most perfect, smoothest, with the fewest hassles that went into making it. Some of them tend to be The Perfectionist, and where audiences might forgive one or two mistakes or blemishes, the creator can't and will keep striving to achieve that ideal. Often, the author put so much pressure on themselves that it actually damaged the creative process, whereas giving their creativity free-rein produced better results despite them paying less attention. Also, works intended to deliver a deep, profound, important message have a tendency to come across as Anvilicious-esque, while works that are written without such concern end up focusing more on the story itself. Alternatively, writers are as human as the rest of us and, as individuals, can hold different opinions than their fanbase (or what they think is their fanbase); this includes both expectations of audience experience and perceived aesop importance/acceptance. In some cases, however, the author does indeed know better and over time the work of art they are proudest of might become Vindicated by History.

All of the above aside, this trope isn't necessarily as black and white as it sounds. As some of the examples below demonstrate, the opus can, in fact, have its own substantial fanbase and perfectly respectable sales and reviews...but it just ends up Overshadowed by Awesome compared to the other works. Some fans may even agree with the author and prefer the opus to the author's other creations.

Edited by M84 on Oct 24th 2019 at 2:59:08 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#111733: Oct 24th 2019 at 12:14:01 AM

I am currently taking a Shakespeare around the world class & one of the first things the professor discussed was that Shakespeare & actors in general at their time were basically considered akin to ruffians & scum.

Shakespeare was actually counter-culture back then.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#111734: Oct 24th 2019 at 1:26:45 AM

The Puritans really hated theatre and claimed the concurrent plagues were a sign of their decadence and the end times. tongue

That said, Shakespeare’s history plays were all propaganda on behalf of the monarchy.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Oct 24th 2019 at 1:30:26 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#111735: Oct 24th 2019 at 1:44:43 AM

That said, Shakespeare’s history plays were all propaganda on behalf of the monarchy.

Hey, another parallel. It's kind of stunning how much of Silver Age Marvel was rather propagandist. Like the sheer amount of Iron Man's Rogues Gallery that were Chinese or Russian communist stereotypes.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#111736: Oct 24th 2019 at 1:47:09 AM

King Lear was pretty applicable with what was going on at the time.

Also its King Lear this week, well this & last week. Last week we did the play, this week we see any productions based on it. I intend on seeing its Japanese adaptation Ran.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#111737: Oct 24th 2019 at 2:08:30 AM

[up][up] Well, Iron Man was envisioned to be the Anti-Hero that people of the sixties hated. A rich, womanizing war profiteer and capitalist who got himself into an armored suit. And a capitalist superhero's Rogues Gallery would naturally either have rival capitalists (like the Iron Monger and Justin Hammer) or communist stereotypes (like the Crimson Dynamo, Black Widow and the Mandarin).

Sadly, that also meant that Iron Man's Rogues Gallery got outdated after the Cold War, unable to maintain a timeless nature that Spider-Man and Batman's Rogues Gallery got to enjoy.

Edited by Shadao on Oct 24th 2019 at 2:09:11 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#111738: Oct 24th 2019 at 2:21:28 AM

It's worth noting that the capitalist enemies didn't come until quite a while later. Hammer and Stane didn't make their first appearances until nearly twenty years after the character of Iron Man was first introduced.

When they started, Iron Man and the Silver Age Captain America were rather similar to - say - 60's Star Trek: the heroes portrayed more "virtuous" American values, and the villains were analogues or representatives of cultures, governments and ideologies considered adversarial by (then) contemporary America.

The first Iron Man movie kind of updates this by having Tony's primary mission be to fly around blowing up terrorists, which is a level of topicality that literally every other Marvel movie since has tried to avoid.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Oct 24th 2019 at 2:22:06 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#111739: Oct 24th 2019 at 2:35:22 AM

The first Iron Man movie started out with him fighting against terrorists only to switch midway to fighting Iron Monger.

The second movie moved away from terrorists and dealt with Hammer and Whiplash.

The third movie seemed to go back to fighting terrorists, but the real villain turned out to be another corporate rival.

Disgusted, but not surprised
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#111740: Oct 24th 2019 at 3:16:37 AM

Was Tony ever a womanizer in the comics?

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#111742: Oct 24th 2019 at 5:22:45 AM

In the comics, the Tony/Pepper romance isn't a thing. Pepper actually married Happy. She and Tony are close friends, but it's never really been more than that.

Tony's love interest in the comics is "anbody who is female and nearby". He and Hawkeye are the Avengers' two most notoriously horny bachelors - though it's worth noting that Clint at least did settle down and get married for a time.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 24th 2019 at 6:24:51 AM

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alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#111743: Oct 24th 2019 at 7:27:40 AM

Tony's love interest in the comics is "anybody who is female and nearby".
It still kind of is — his current love interest is the Wasp. Although he has toned down the womanizing part.

[up] Yeah, I wouldn't really call marrying Mockingbird "settling down." In fact, they had pretty much just met one another and then hit it off when they impulsively decided to get married.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#111744: Oct 24th 2019 at 7:31:27 AM

Once Gamora sprained Tony’s pelvis and was also disappointed by the get together

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#111746: Oct 24th 2019 at 12:01:10 PM

[up]>_><_< Thank you for that.

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#111747: Oct 24th 2019 at 12:11:27 PM

Same, aside from the "disappointed" part.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#111748: Oct 24th 2019 at 12:34:44 PM

I also agree. After all the shit he pulled in the comics' Civil War, getting to crush Tony's pelvis and then talk shit about his poor sexual prowess would be a blast.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#111749: Oct 24th 2019 at 12:40:09 PM

Pepper actually married Happy.

As I understand it, they divorced and then Happy died. Out of curiosity, was that around the same time the first Iron Man came out?

This song needs more love.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#111750: Oct 24th 2019 at 12:40:58 PM

[up][up]Here you go.

Edited by alliterator on Oct 24th 2019 at 12:41:10 PM


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