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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#111451: Oct 18th 2019 at 3:21:10 PM

Kind of like Goku but way more so

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#111452: Oct 18th 2019 at 3:27:04 PM

At no point does the audience ever feel like Saitama is in danger of either harm or failure. But the audience can still fear for the rest of the cast, who often struggle for their lives against the foes Saitama inevitably puts down.
See, this is what I mean: the hero doesn't have to be an underdog, they don't even have to struggle in a fight that much, in order for there to be tension and suspense. The best writers of Superman knew this and were able to write stories around Superman, making it so that even though readers knew Superman would always win, there was still tension and questions such as "Would he win in time? Would he be able to save everyone?" And the best writers were the ones able to write stories around questions such as "What happens when Superman can't do everything? What happens when winning a fight is not the solution to the problem?"

The hero being the "underdog" is not always the case and should not be taken as something absolutely needed.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#111453: Oct 18th 2019 at 3:34:23 PM

Also, One-Punch Man isn't supposed to be strictly a story about superheroes punching each other. Part of the "tension" so to speak is not really about whether Saitama will be able to beat the last bad guy but whether he can actually find meaning and fulfillment in his life. That more existential bent makes it a completely different type of story than most superhero fare despite the surface trappings.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Oct 18th 2019 at 6:39:27 AM

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#111454: Oct 18th 2019 at 3:44:18 PM

I was honestly able to get into Mob Psycho more than OPM. Mainly because Saitama's overpoweredness was so distracting and not funny in any way (to me) that I couldn't focus on any other characters. But I admit that's a me problem and I'd never call OPM a bad show. Just not for me.

By contrast, Mob is also ridiculous, but there are very specific scenarios that can give him genuine trouble, and I bought the "fear for the rest of the cast" thing a lot more with his show.

Though I do love me a classic story of a villain fighting a hero. I can't help it. I just do.

Kaze ni Nare!
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#111455: Oct 18th 2019 at 3:52:21 PM

Just to correct something from the previous page: according to Odin's enchantment, Steve picking up Mjolnir should give him "the power of Thor", so during the fight he should have been just as durable as Thor was.

Though that raises the question of whether Steve would have gotten more of a power boost if Thor hadn't been out of shape at the time. Is "the power of Thor" a constant quantity, or does it vary depending on how powerful Thor himself is at the moment?

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#111456: Oct 18th 2019 at 3:54:44 PM

According to the Russos's Reddit Q&A a while back, Thor at the end of Endgame is stronger than Thor at the end of Infinity War, in a "he just needed his mojo back" way, so Cap with the power of Thor would be equal to that.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Oct 18th 2019 at 3:56:26 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#111457: Oct 18th 2019 at 3:59:27 PM

Really?

Ok. Carol is stronger.

I mean, if Fat and out of shape Thor with both Mjolnir and Stormbreaker (the latter of which made him more powerful than when he wielded the former) is still getting his ass kicked by Thanos, while Carol no sells a head butt from him, than I guess it's no longer a debate.

One Strip! One Strip!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#111458: Oct 18th 2019 at 6:14:49 PM

I'm fine with the two strongest heroes in the MCU being Captain Marvel and Scarlet Witch (who are also the only two characters even shown directly overpowering Thanos), since both of them got their powers from an Infinity Stone.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Oct 18th 2019 at 6:15:16 AM

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#111459: Oct 18th 2019 at 6:19:31 PM

[up] Would that mean Vision could've been a match for Thanos had he not been stabbed in Infinity War? After all, he had the Mind Stone in his head.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#111460: Oct 18th 2019 at 6:21:24 PM

Fair enough. So I guess Thor is number 3 (can give Thanos a good fight under the right circumstances, and even briefly got one up on him right after he was fully empowered by the Gauntlet with all six stones).

They did stay consistent with both Wanda and Carol forcing evil Grimace to pull some desperation moves (raining fire on his own troops and himself to get Wanda to back off and barehanding the Power stone to put Carol down respectively), so it's hard to argue that.

One Strip! One Strip!
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#111461: Oct 18th 2019 at 7:02:51 PM

Though they never did adequately answer why Strange's "send 'em to the Mirror Dimension" trick isn't an I Win button when fighting anyone without space warping abilities.

Edited by RavenWilder on Oct 18th 2019 at 7:04:33 AM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#111462: Oct 18th 2019 at 7:06:10 PM

He chucked one at Thanos in Infinity War and he shattered it with his fist. It's possible that the whole "shattering Strange's mirror dimension" removed his ability to hurl mirror dimensions at people at least temporarily.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#111463: Oct 18th 2019 at 7:10:41 PM

He chucked it at Thanos when Thanos had the Power Stone, then didn’t when Thanos had no Stones because RDJ’s contract was nearly up. tongue

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Oct 18th 2019 at 7:11:20 AM

TheAirman Brightness from The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Historians will say we were good friends.
Brightness
#111464: Oct 18th 2019 at 7:17:07 PM

He actually saw billions of timelines where they win with ease. He just gamed the system to kill Tony off because he was salty about the balloon animal thing.

Edited by TheAirman on Oct 18th 2019 at 9:17:28 AM

PSN ID: FateSeraph | Switch friendcode: SW-0145-8835-0610 Congratulations! She/They
AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#111465: Oct 18th 2019 at 7:21:51 PM

The whole battle on Titan was a HUGE uphill struggle from the getgo since Thanos was coming in with four Stones, plus it turns out they were meant to lose it according to what Strange saw...

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#111466: Oct 18th 2019 at 8:26:58 PM

The only thing that bugs me about Thor’s level of strength in Endgame is how silly it makes him easily overpowering a Thanos with all six stones in Infinity War in retrospect.

It just kind of hammers in (no pun intended) how pointless giving Thor a “we need to craft a weapon that can instakill Thanos” subplot was, as obviously such a thing was never going to work for the greater story - the first time he gets the weapon and just whiffs when given the chance, the second time he writers just ignore how powerful it is completely because it’s a story breaker.

The weird thing is how the people writing around the thing are not only literally the same people who created it, but that both are in the same story: they also did so in effectively the same breath.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Oct 18th 2019 at 8:28:53 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#111467: Oct 18th 2019 at 8:50:46 PM

So I was watching Part 3 of CinemaWin's Everything Great About Endgame (which you should watch, it's really good) and I realized something: the Ancient One only talks about the timeline splitting when Infinity Stones are involved. This is the exact conversation that her and Professor Hulk have:

THE ANCIENT ONE: The Infinity Stones create what you experience as the flow of time. Remove one stone and that flow splits. [Shows black stream indicating a point of divergence] Now, this may benefit your reality, but my new one...not so much. In this new branched Reality, without our chief weapon against the forces of darkness, our world will be overrun. Millions will suffer. So, tell me, Doctor, can your science prevent all that?

BRUCE BANNER: No, but we can erase it. Because once we are done with the stones, we can return each one to its own timeline at the moment it was taken. So, chronologically, in that reality, it never left.

Now, obviously, Banner isn't an expert on time travel, but the Ancient One agrees with him, so that's that, right? Taking an Infinity Stone splits the timeline, returning it merges the timeline back, cutting off the branches.

In each of the times that the Avengers went back to, they each took an Infinity Stone from that time, splitting the timeline and then merging it back when Captain America returned that Infinity Stone.

But the Ancient One doesn't say anything about making changes time that don't involve the Infinity Stones. Banner isn't an expert, so when he says that you can't change the past, he doesn't actually know that, he is just going off of logic. What if you go back in time and change something without removing an Infinity Stone? Would the timeline split again or would the timeline simply adjust, so that event always happened?

(We can't use Loki in 2012 as an example, remember, because he did take the Tesseract with him.)

There are only two examples from Endgame: Clint taking the baseball glove from his family home (and we have no idea the glove simply disappeared in the past or it had always disappeared) and Captain America going back to stay with Peggy. Did Cap create an alternate timeline or did he cause a time loop because he didn't take an Infinity Stone? (And I'm ignoring Word of God, because between the writers and directors, Word of God also contradicts itself.)

In Agents of SHIELD, their time travel doesn't involve Pym Particles, but that may not matter either because they also don't take Infinity Stones with them when they return. They aren't splitting the timeline, they are changing it...but at the same time, the previous timeline still exists. Which means that they did split the timeline, they just cause the main timeline (Timeline A) and replaced it with different one (Timeline B), but Timeline A still exists. Probably. Because Deke Shaw, who came from Timeline A still exists.

...In conclusion, time travel is complicated.

Edited by alliterator on Oct 18th 2019 at 8:52:36 AM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#111468: Oct 18th 2019 at 9:06:17 PM

[up][up]Endgame and Infinity War are the most "as strong or as weak as the plot demands" of the films and that's what bugs me so much while watching them. tongue

AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#111469: Oct 18th 2019 at 9:14:16 PM

Hmm...can't help but think how the 2014 alternate timeline'll go without its Thanos, Gamora or Nebula. The Guardians probably won't form and Ronan could have an easier time going about his havoc on the galaxy. On the plus side, at least the Asgardians could make it to Earth without being decimated by Thanos.

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#111470: Oct 18th 2019 at 10:03:06 PM

It's kind of ironic how everyone talks about how the 2014 timeline turned out the best because it was originally the exact opposite. The Russos planned a scene where 2014!Thanos would show up at the Avengers Compound and toss the severed head of his universe's Captain America, revealing he killed his timeline's Avengers after learning of his 2018 counterpart's demise.

Probably a bit gratuitous and may have pushed the PG-13 rating too far.

Edited by chasemaddigan on Oct 18th 2019 at 1:04:14 PM

OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#111471: Oct 18th 2019 at 10:21:19 PM

So essentially both movies run on Shonen logic.

Only Ragnarok had them defeat Hela with someone with a bigger powerlevel.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Oct 18th 2019 at 10:23:30 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#111472: Oct 18th 2019 at 10:39:43 PM

And that power-level was DESTINY level.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#111473: Oct 18th 2019 at 10:51:57 PM

So I was watching Part 3 of Cinema Win's Everything Great About Endgame (which you should watch, it's really good) and I realized something: the Ancient One only talks about the timeline splitting when Infinity Stones are involved. This is the exact conversation that her and Professor Hulk have:

THE ANCIENT ONE: The Infinity Stones create what you experience as the flow of time. Remove one stone and that flow splits. [Shows black stream indicating a point of divergence] Now, this may benefit your reality, but my new one...not so much. In this new branched Reality, without our chief weapon against the forces of darkness, our world will be overrun. Millions will suffer. So, tell me, Doctor, can your science prevent all that? BRUCE BANNER: No, but we can erase it. Because once we are done with the stones, we can return each one to its own timeline at the moment it was taken. So, chronologically, in that reality, it never left.

Now, obviously, Banner isn't an expert on time travel, but the Ancient One agrees with him, so that's that, right? Taking an Infinity Stone splits the timeline, returning it merges the timeline back, cutting off the branches. In each of the times that the Avengers went back to, they each took an Infinity Stone from that time, splitting the timeline and then merging it back when Captain America returned that Infinity Stone.

But the Ancient One doesn't say anything about making changes time that don't involve the Infinity Stones. Banner isn't an expert, so when he says that you can't change the past, he doesn't actually know that, he is just going off of logic. What if you go back in time and change something without removing an Infinity Stone? Would the timeline split again or would the timeline simply adjust, so that event always happened?

See, I've been pointing that out since Endgame was released. The Ancient One's conversation with Bruce tells us three things:

  1. The Infinity Gems are responsible for creating time.
  2. Because the Infinity Gems are responsible for creating time, removal of such a Gem causes the timeline to split, creating a timeline branch.
  3. Returning the Gem to the timeline at the exact instant that it was taken from the timeline prevents the timeline from splitting, clipping that branch.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#111474: Oct 18th 2019 at 10:58:10 PM

Which brings up the interesting question of if it means they can basically pull whatever they want from the past (baseball gloves, Mjolnirs, Thanoses) and essentially create new matter with no disruption to the flow of time so long as they don't take Infinity Stones.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#111475: Oct 18th 2019 at 11:00:00 PM

That seemed to be Bruce's working theory before the Ancient One explained that the Infinity Gems don't abide by the same clean, easy, consequence-free time travel rules that everything else does.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

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