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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#111426: Oct 18th 2019 at 7:52:12 AM

Having to find inventive ways to defeat powerful cosmic beings isn't a problem, it's a core conceit of the genre. Stories have been having mortals face threats that are far beyond their ken and understanding for thousands of years - a writer hasn't written themselves into a hole when a mortal being faces what seems like an insurmountable obstacle. They're just telling the story.

Frankly, if you're solving magical battles or cosmic encounters with "get even more powerful than the threat," you're doing it wrong. IIRC, Doctor Strange in the comics has done it, but the writers don't typically do so (the ending of the Dr. Strange movie, with him finding an inventive magical way to outwit a much more powerful threat, is more typical of him), and only ever really do in a "we've done this song and dance before, so lets try it this way" sense.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Oct 18th 2019 at 8:05:47 AM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#111427: Oct 18th 2019 at 8:02:23 AM

Guardians of the Galaxy is pretty good for cosmic because their whole concept of being ragtag means that they're punching way above their weight class most of the time and have to come up with weird solutions.

Like punching Thanos in the dick with a cosmic cube.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#111428: Oct 18th 2019 at 9:55:07 AM

Frankly, if you're solving magical battles or cosmic encounters with "get even more powerful than the threat," you're doing it wrong.

Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann would like to have a word.

Edited by Soble on Oct 18th 2019 at 9:57:51 AM

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#111429: Oct 18th 2019 at 9:58:41 AM

Shounen anime would have a word in general. Shounen anime also tends to have escalation issues.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Oct 18th 2019 at 10:00:39 AM

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#111430: Oct 18th 2019 at 9:59:42 AM

Fair enough.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#111431: Oct 18th 2019 at 10:01:24 AM

However, I'll concede that the way I put it was too blanket. It's not a bad way to end a conflict, but a better way to put what I said is that one shouldn't be relying on that as a means of dealing with those kinds of threats, or defaulting to the idea that that's the way they should be resolved, especially in series don't have plans to conclude themselves afterwards.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#111432: Oct 18th 2019 at 10:08:53 AM

The way cosmic threats often work in fiction is that, for all their immense power, there are certain rules they are bound to follow (cannot break their word, can only appear once every X years, can only possess a willing host, etc.), and exploiting those rules is how the heroes beat them.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#111433: Oct 18th 2019 at 10:09:27 AM

Hawkeye once beat the Grandmaster by making a bet with him...and then cheated.

Edited by alliterator on Oct 18th 2019 at 10:11:27 AM

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#111434: Oct 18th 2019 at 10:12:31 AM

[up]Not nearly as fun as the time Mephisto literally tried pulling the bet from “The Devil Went Down to Georgia” in a Silver Surfer issue.

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#111435: Oct 18th 2019 at 10:23:52 AM

I think for me I just find the whole "beating a god by exploiting some system" thing to be lame. At least when it's overdone. I'm not so gouache as to say "Never do it." I've enjoyed plenty of stories where a massively powerful being is tricked or undercut by cleverness.

But when every character can feasibly be beaten by every other character depending on the situation, then that character doesn't feel strong. At least, not as strong as the story is building them up to be, because they'll never get to use it.

Though that might just be a me thing. If a god is bound by billions of rules, then it doesn't matter how much you telll me they can blow up the galaxy with a thought, it still doesn't feel like they're "functionally" that strong.

Edited by GNinja on Oct 18th 2019 at 5:28:32 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#111436: Oct 18th 2019 at 10:47:40 AM

Strong as They Need to Be is pretty much one of the defining traits of comics, and the MCU is no exception.

Somemtimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

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TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#111437: Oct 18th 2019 at 10:51:16 AM

It's looking like we may hear something Deadpool and MCU related in a few days...

EDIT: Moreover, a lot of insiders on Twitter are also teasing something to do with Deadpool...

Edited by TargetmasterJoe on Oct 18th 2019 at 1:54:54 PM

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#111438: Oct 18th 2019 at 10:55:22 AM

[up][up] I feel like certain characters pull off Strong as They Need to Be better than others. Spider-Man for example. He's not particularly ridiculous, so him fluctuating from being able to exist in a fight with the Hulk to being beaten by really skilled humans doesn't feel as preposterous.

When you get into the level of reality warpers and celestial abominations, it sticks out a lot more.

Hell, I still don't know how anyone fights the Flash (I know he's not Cosmic or MC, but he comes to mind as someone so ridiculous that it feels contrived whenever he's defeated)

Kaze ni Nare!
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#111439: Oct 18th 2019 at 11:59:42 AM

I dint think MCU used that trope that much, I mean I dont remenber any other example than Spider beaten Bucky adn Falcon at the same time while tony saying that Cap was going soft on him.

Or Strange being a clumsy to UBER wizard between movies.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#111440: Oct 18th 2019 at 12:27:58 PM

There is always the Thanos example.

The human characters in general are subject to this very often, just for the sake of making them appear badass next to all the superpowered folks.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#111441: Oct 18th 2019 at 12:53:31 PM

Thanos in endgame? because I havent see it, but in infinity war you could said he was learing to use the gaunlet.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#111442: Oct 18th 2019 at 12:54:49 PM

If you’re talking about Steve grabbing Thanos’ hand I still say that while Steve was straining as hard as he could, Thanos just looked confused

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#111443: Oct 18th 2019 at 1:01:24 PM

"Can...can you please get out of my hand?, you are creeping me out"

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#111444: Oct 18th 2019 at 1:02:52 PM

Frankly, I think it would be best to just split characters up during battles and have them focus on different things depending on their abilities (rescuing, infiltration, etc).

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#111445: Oct 18th 2019 at 1:03:45 PM

Not just that, fighting with him in general. I mean, even with Mjolnir, he was still just his regular self. One punch from the guy who beat Hulk and Thor senseless should've exploded the guy.

But like I said, I get the concept and its the same in comics as well. Power Levels are a means to an end, not the end itself.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#111446: Oct 18th 2019 at 1:08:34 PM

In the comic consistenty have die in a hill a long time ago, that is why usually tony, hank and reed are the SUPER SMARTEST MEN OF EARTH or how one super become super powerfull and beat armies by themselves and so on.

Granted, see Thanos beat the hulk in hand to hand combat is clearly something

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#111447: Oct 18th 2019 at 3:00:36 PM

This is not a Versus debate, this is crafting a narrative. A lot of things go into the art of crafting a narrative. One of those things is tension. Tension us produced by making the audience question how or if the protagonist can achieve their goal.

This is why heroes are usually underdogs. If you can look at a conflict and say, "Oh yeah, hero wins that, easy," then there is no tension. Conflicts in stories are lopsided by design.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 18th 2019 at 4:02:46 AM

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alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#111448: Oct 18th 2019 at 3:13:56 PM

This is why heroes are usually underdogs. If you can look at a conflict and say, "Oh yeah, hero wins that, easy," then there is no tension. Conflicts in stories are lopsided by design.
One-Punch Man is here to disagree with you.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#111449: Oct 18th 2019 at 3:18:17 PM

One Punch Man is the exception that proves the rule, as it's directly about a guy who is so overpowered he finds life boring.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#111450: Oct 18th 2019 at 3:18:43 PM

One Punch Man creates tension by keeping Saitama out of the action until it's time for him to solve the plot.

At no point does the audience ever feel like Saitama is in danger of either harm or failure. But the audience can still fear for the rest of the cast, who often struggle for their lives against the foes Saitama inevitably puts down.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

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