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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#111026: Oct 7th 2019 at 9:14:33 AM

I suppose it is appropriate that Tony's biggest fan among the superhero community is named Peter.

Wait, does this mean that in his next movie he will deny Tony three times?

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#111027: Oct 7th 2019 at 9:21:37 AM

Does Illusion Tony's corpse count? of him denying Tony once?

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#111028: Oct 7th 2019 at 9:23:45 AM

Basically, Tony was the only character in the main Civil War book that Millar tried to write as somebody with some level of common sense.
If that was his intention, he failed.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#111029: Oct 7th 2019 at 9:28:49 AM

[up]I wouldn't call it a total failure. Tony was actually trying to come to a compromise and just wanted a few minutes of Steve's time to talk before the situation escalated into Goliath dying by Clone Thor's hands.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#111030: Oct 7th 2019 at 9:31:09 AM

It is a fair point that Tony asked to sit down and discuss things and Steve used it as an opportunity to backstab Tony with an EMP joy buzzer

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#111031: Oct 7th 2019 at 9:44:35 AM

As soon as you say "Clone Thor," Tony's already lost the moral high ground.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#111032: Oct 7th 2019 at 9:46:37 AM

Also Reed Richards was there and helped. So he can get fucked too.

Hank Pym is, for once, blameless. Because he had been replaced by a Skrull and nobody noticed.

(This is why his eventual dying fantasy was that his friends care that he was gone)

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#111033: Oct 7th 2019 at 10:24:44 AM

The Clone Thor thing is really bad, yeah. Tony created a superweapon in a way that violates the trust of one of his oldest allies, then unleashed that superweapon on some of his other former allies, then because he hadn't adequately tested the thing it kills someone.

But what makes it bad isn't even the action itself, it's the circumstances after.

I still say that Goliath's death should absolutely have been the turning point of the Civil War storyline - the bit where the two sides go "this has gone too far, we're actually killing each other now" and start to change the way they look at what's going on around them - either by doubling down on their decisions even if it hurts, or doing the opposite and facing the consequences. The scope of the entire conflict should have reacted to that moment.

But it didn't. That happened later. Instead it was treated like just another C-List Fodder death. And that better than anything is a good indication of what was wrong with the writing of Civil War: no real cognizance of what was really being done with the characters. Civil War was an excuse for superheroes to fight like always that thus couldn't handle the consequences of the actions those heroes were bandying around.

The mental gymnastics required for the writers to go "well, it's actually Clone Thor's fault," up to an eventually including just not bringing up Goliath at all, to supposedly prevent it from impacting Iron Man's position were especially bad. It's like firing a rocket into a crowd and then saying "well, fireworks are unpredictable. I wasn't expecting it to hurt anyone in particular" when someone gets burned.

Also Reed Richards was there and helped. So he can get fucked too.

Comics Reed Richards is an awful, awful person who deserves to be hated far more than Cap, Iron Man or Carol do, to be honest.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Oct 7th 2019 at 10:29:33 AM

Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#111034: Oct 7th 2019 at 10:56:55 AM

You could say that of most hero vs hero events. They end up crossing several lines before they realize what the hell they are doing.

Wake me up at your own risk.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#111035: Oct 7th 2019 at 10:57:44 AM

Comics Reed Richards is an awful, awful person who deserves to be hated far more than Cap, Iron Man or Carol do, to be honest.

He shouldn’t be, but Reed, like many characters, becomes what the narrative wants him to be sometimes.

At least Moon-Girl showed him up recently by proving herself smarter than him.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Oct 7th 2019 at 11:59:20 AM

One Strip! One Strip!
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#111036: Oct 7th 2019 at 10:57:59 AM

I can see a Civil War II storyline happening in the MCU, but it wouldn't be about Ulysses — it would be about the Incursions and what to do about them. And it would lead into Secret Wars.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#111037: Oct 7th 2019 at 11:00:59 AM

Whatever happened to Clone Thor?

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#111038: Oct 7th 2019 at 11:01:47 AM

He went to Tahiti. It's a magical place.

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#111039: Oct 7th 2019 at 11:02:11 AM

Real Thor killed him while saying "Thou art no Thor!"

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#111040: Oct 7th 2019 at 11:02:51 AM

Hercules, actually.

Wake me up at your own risk.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#111041: Oct 7th 2019 at 11:03:02 AM

I mean, that's what you get for naming him Ragnarok.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#111043: Oct 7th 2019 at 11:05:50 AM

I can see a Civil War II storyline happening in the MCU, but it wouldn't be about Ulysses — it would be about the Incursions and what to do about them. And it would lead into Secret Wars.

Oh god no. Let's keep Hickman's grimdark DC-pandering nonsense out of the MCU.

The central premise of the Incursions is that the entire Multiverse is dying because Multiverse-building super-gods decided to nuke the Multiverse for lulz. Now alternate universes are crashing into our universe by way of a planet Earth appearing in the sky. The only way to save our universe is for our heroes to go to THEIR universe and blow it the f*ck up, killing trillions of people, each and every time a Multiverse pops up.

This causes a fracture between superheroes who think we SHOULD go kill other universes to protect our own universe and superheroes who think we should just do nothing and die. But then nothing works and all universes die, and everyone on them dies, and the Multiverse is destroyed. Save for a small portion of the Multiverse that Doom salvages and becomes Almighty God of.

Secret War itself had some pretty cool stuff in it. But Hickman's run on the Avengers is the worst run I've ever read, and even the good parts of Secret War wouldn't make for a very good movie.

What made Secret War cool was the way it served as a celebration of decades of Marvel history by having different regions based on all the most famous comic book arcs. For the better part of a year, every comic Marvel churned out was a parallel universe miniseries celebrating one of their biggest events.

There is no way to capture that in a two-hour film.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 7th 2019 at 12:06:49 PM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#111044: Oct 7th 2019 at 11:09:59 AM

> There is no way to capture that in a two-hour film.

There's no such word as can't when you have a budget of near billions thanks to Disney's backing..they'd have to make some alternations but fundamentally it'd faithful to the source materal

Almost,can we include the heroes from parallel universes playing video games together?

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#111045: Oct 7th 2019 at 11:14:20 AM

> There is no way to capture that in a two-hour film.

There's no such word as can't when you have a budget of near billions thanks to Disney's backing..they'd have to make some alternations but fundamentally it'd faithful to the source materal

Almost,can we include the heroes from parallel universes playing video games together?

The source material is an Excuse Plot that exists to allow Marvel to print something in the area of 50 different comics each exploring a different parallel universe rooted in a major comic book storyline from Marvel's history.

Hickman's Secret Wars is an unfilmable premise. The only part of it you could actually produce a film about would be Hickman's bland central plot about 616 heroes beating up God-Doom to make the cool patchwork-universe end.

And at that point, when you're just making a movie about a bunch of heroes beating up Doom, you might as well just make a movie about any time when the heroes have beat up Doom. If you can't do justice to the patchwork quilt of universes celebrating decades of comic book history, there's no point in doing the 2015 Secret Wars.

Now, OG Secret Wars where the Beyonder just assembles a bunch of heroes and villains to fight each other, that might work as a film. And it doesn't require trying to make a movie about that godawful Incursions plot point.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 7th 2019 at 12:15:55 PM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#111046: Oct 7th 2019 at 11:19:32 AM

Agree to disagree, then. I found a lot of Hickman's Avengers stuff very neat and cool and his Secret Wars was goddamn amazing.

Of course, we would have to wait until the FF and the X-Men were there, since Reed Richards plays a huge part. But I would love it if they recreated the scene with Thanos telling the Thing what Doom had done to them:

"Doom has asked you to live on your knees. Every day of this life, he's beaten you as you lie there. What do you do? You stand up. What time is it, Ben Grimm? What time is it?"

Edited by alliterator on Oct 7th 2019 at 11:20:05 AM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#111047: Oct 7th 2019 at 12:39:25 PM

Hickman's Avengers were a bunch of convoluted nonsense that dragged on for far too long to be interesting and had some very disappointing reveals.

I mean really, how much more lazy than taking Doctor Doom as the great destroyer can one get?

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#111048: Oct 7th 2019 at 12:45:53 PM

There's a difference in a twist being obvious and a twist being lazy.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#111049: Oct 8th 2019 at 12:10:36 AM

I will said that seen the russos brother make both civil war and infinity war, in a way the second was a way to make Capitan america wrong.

I mean, in a way sure, is thannos movie but if is philosophy clash with someone is Cap, the guy who never compromise and dont trade lives in any way, sahpe and form....and he lost, hell, he never got a change against Thanos, in fact the moment he got to wakanda can be said is "oh yeah!" moment but a villianous side: the moment where the protagonist got the power up and beat every other villian.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#111050: Oct 8th 2019 at 12:25:30 AM

To me it felt like Endgame, building off Infinity War, was the film where Steve needed most to be ideologically challenged, but that potential plotline was mostly avoided.

Tony's reaction to Thanos was to overcompensate with Ultron, nearly wiping out all life on Earth.

Steve's reaction to Thanos was to undercompensate and have no plan beyond being "together", which got their butts kicked within seconds of Thanos showing up, killing half of all life on every planet in the universe.

Early in Endgame Tony harshly chastises Cap for not being around when New York was attacked again, claiming Steve didn't stick to his own promise of fighting together. Stark insists, regardless that Ultron was a disaster, that he at least tried to do something while the others did nothing. Then it never comes up again.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Oct 8th 2019 at 12:28:20 PM


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