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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#111001: Oct 7th 2019 at 6:26:30 AM

[up][up]More specifically, only certain types of superheroes are allowed to be right. Captain America ended up being right about the SHRA being a bad thing (despite that supposedly the original plan was that Steve's views on superheroism were meant to be seen as outdated). In Injustice, the heroes who are against lethal force no matter the circumstances are the ones allowed to be right. Every writer that wasn't named Greg Rucka depicted Wonder Woman's decision to kill Max Lord as an unambiguously bad thing. Even in the movie version of Civil War, Tony is depicted as being misguided at best for choosing the Accords and subsequent movies go out of their way to depict at as useless and obstructive.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#111002: Oct 7th 2019 at 7:15:12 AM

Part of the issue is also that superheroes are written by superhero writers.
See, I fundamentally disagree with this. A writer is a writer is a writer. Ain't no difference between a comic book writer and a television writer and a movie writer. Scott Lobdell, who is notorious for writing Red Hood and the Outlaws with Starfire as a sex object, also wrote the movie Happy Death Day, which was pretty damn great. The only difference is that movies have a much longer production cycle and so the script is reviewed and rewritten multiple times, sometimes by multiple people, so that any issues it has tend to be smoothed out. But there are definitely movies where a) there are black-and-white good and bad guys and b) it's pretty much all the good guys and bad guys punching it out. (See: the Transformers movies.)

The reason JMS said what he said ("So Iron Man is a villain now?") is because that's just how Mark Millar wrote him. Remember: Mark Millar was in charge of the main book and Millar is not subtle. JMS, also, created and wrote most of Babylon 5, as well as many films (like Changeling), so, really, calling him only a "comic book writer" is being disingenuous.

tldr; a comic book writer is just a writer, like all other writers. Saying that all they know how to write is good guys punching bad guys is being silly and basically insulting of the comic book genre as a whole.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#111003: Oct 7th 2019 at 7:17:47 AM

More specifically, only certain types of superheroes are allowed to be right. Captain America ended up being right about the SHRA being a bad thing (despite that supposedly the original plan was that Steve's views on superheroism were meant to be seen as outdated). In Injustice, the heroes who are against lethal force no matter the circumstances are the ones allowed to be right. Every writer that wasn't named Greg Rucka depicted Wonder Woman's decision to kill Max Lord as an unambiguously bad thing. Even in the movie version of Civil War, Tony is depicted as being misguided at best for choosing the Accords and subsequent movies go out of their way to depict at as useless and obstructive.

Depends on whose book it is.

If Batman fights the Punisher, then the Punisher's methods will be shown to be unnecessarily cruel and inhumane crimes against humanity.

If the Punisher fights Batman, however, then Batman's methods will be shown to be hopelessly naive idealism that does more harm than good.

Captain America: Civil War benefit in part from having just one creative team telling the story. With the comics, the idea was that everyone's tie-ins would show their side. Captain America is right in Captain America comics, Iron Man is right in Iron Man comics. This, coupled with very poor editorial practice, meant that the SHRA could be simultaneously depicted as a totally good thing that benefits the world in Captain Marvel, a flawed but optional practice in The Loners, and literally Nazis in The Initiative. And those depictions are all equally canon.

The MCU, by comparison, only had one creative vision for the Sokovia Accords. You knew who was going to be right from the second you walked into the theater. Captain America's name is on the movie. It's his story. He's the hero. There is nothing to debate here.

This narrow focus gave Civil War the flexibility to make Tony a compelling but flawed three-dimensional antagonist. Meanwhile, the presence of an actual villain alongside Tony, Zemo, allowed the writers to ramp up the action without having to make Tony or Steve be the one that bombs the U.N. or triggers the Winter Soldier to fight the Avengers.

But, at the end of the day, the story wasn't about Zemo. Zemo was a spanner in the works. He was a cause for escalation. The story is really about Steve versus Tony, with Zemo enabling Tony to go off his rocker for a stakes-heavy final throwdown over Bucky's continued existence. Tony is literally trying to do a murder, and it still doesn't compromise his character or role as a hero in the rest of the franchise the way that Fuhrer Tony in the comics did.

It might seem counterintuitive, I'm sure. But by deciding right off the bat that Tony would be the bad guy of the film, the writers were able to give him more complexity and more flexibility than he had in his "complex" position in the comics. "Tony is the Hero but ALSO the Villain" made him a very bipolar figure whose villainy quickly outweighed the heroism. But "Tony is wrong but you still kinda feel for his side of things" made him legitimately complex.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 7th 2019 at 8:18:40 AM

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windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#111004: Oct 7th 2019 at 7:26:50 AM

The reason JMS said what he said ("So Iron Man is a villain now?") is because that's just how Mark Millar wrote him.

Except JMS was the one who wrote Tony as a villain while Millar had the most sympathetic take on Iron Man throughout the event. Just compare how JMS handled the Negative Zone prison ordeal to how Millar did. In the main book as written by Millar, Tony says the NZ prison is a temporary holding facility until they can find something more secure to keep superheroes in (since Marvel prisons have a long history of having poor security). JMS by contrast depicted Tony as saying they would remain there for the rest of their natural lives and even threatened to lock Peter in there too if he didn't get with the program.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#111005: Oct 7th 2019 at 8:10:51 AM

Except JMS was the one who wrote Tony as a villain while Millar had the most sympathetic take on Iron Man throughout the event.
No, he didn't. Millar's take on Iron Man was straight up fascist. In the main Civil War book, he had armed guards escorting Daredevil into the Negative Zone prison — Daredevil, someone who barely has powers. Millar was so convinced that people would take Iron Man's side, that he made Iron Man act like a complete asshole.

Hell, Millar was the one who wrote the fact that Iron Man cloned Thor and that clone Thor killed Goliath and when they buried Goliath, they couldn't even shrink him down. That was all Millar.

Of course, Millar wrote Captain America as an asshole, too. JMS, on the other hand, wrote Captain America is someone more heroic. JMS was the one who wrote the "river of truth" speech, which Cap says to Spider-Man.

Edited by alliterator on Oct 7th 2019 at 8:11:57 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#111006: Oct 7th 2019 at 8:17:55 AM

Daredevil, someone who barely has powers.

And yet regularly fights evenly and sometimes wins against the likes of Spider-Man, Captain America, and the Winter Soldier.

Windleopard has the right of it. JMS's rendition of Tony dialed Millar's version up to 11. He was Unintentionally Unsympathetic in Millar's Civil War and 100% Super-Evil in JMS's Amazing Spider-Man.

Of course, Millar wrote Captain America as an asshole, too. JMS, on the other hand, wrote Captain America is someone more heroic. JMS was the one who wrote the "river of truth" speech, which Cap says to Spider-Man.

Yeah, and the less said about that speech, the better.

"This nation was founded on one principle above all else: The requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — "No, YOU move.”"

That speech is classic "Heroic-sounding drivel that will actually make you a terrible person."

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 7th 2019 at 9:19:42 AM

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Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#111007: Oct 7th 2019 at 8:19:30 AM

My understanding is Millar thought Iron Man's case was too sympathetic and made him a jerk so that somebody would still root for Cap.

Leviticus 19:34
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#111008: Oct 7th 2019 at 8:22:09 AM

In the main Civil War book, he had armed guards escorting Daredevil into the Negative Zone prison — Daredevil, someone who barely has powers.

Having armed guards escorting people to prison happens in real life too for non-fascist reasons. And it isn't like weapons are much of a threat to Daredevil anyway.

Hell, Millar was the one who wrote the fact that Iron Man cloned Thor and that clone Thor killed Goliath and when they buried Goliath, they couldn't even shrink him down. That was all Millar.

The clone killing Goliath was an error none of his creators predicted. Reed flat out states the clone was supposed to subdue Goliath. You can accuse Tony of being an incompetent clone scientist (it's obvious engineering and robotics are his strong suit) but not a villain.

Of course, Millar wrote Captain America as an asshole, too. JMS, on the other hand, wrote Captain America is someone more heroic. JMS was the one who wrote the "river of truth" speech, which Cap says to Spider-Man.

As other people have pointed out, the problem with this stupid speech is it has no moral parameters. Steve could have been defending segregation and you wouldn't have to change a single word. Being the lone man against the mob does not automatically make you righteous.

Edited by windleopard on Oct 7th 2019 at 8:42:53 AM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
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#111009: Oct 7th 2019 at 8:24:47 AM

I don’t know that it matters whether it was intended or not because when your side clones Thor and unleashes him and gets someone killed it makes you look really bad despite intentions

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windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#111010: Oct 7th 2019 at 8:27:33 AM

Like I said, that makes them incompetent not evil.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#111011: Oct 7th 2019 at 8:29:18 AM

One could easily make the argument that people so incompetent shouldn’t be leading a superhero army or team

I’ll make that argument

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windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#111013: Oct 7th 2019 at 8:40:37 AM

Government regulation of superhumans is actually a pretty interesting topic. On the one hand, as RodimusMinor pointed out a while back, Alan Moore presents a famous "against" argument in Watchmen, which shows the end result of making metahumans beholden to the government would be, essentially, state-sanctioned super-hitmen answerable to the likes of Richard Nixon. On the other, I've also heard some excellent arguments that it's really no different from something like gun control in real life.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#111014: Oct 7th 2019 at 8:40:42 AM

Yeah, when JMS hears "So Iron Man's going to clone Thor and that clone is going to kill someone," it makes perfect sense for him to go "So Iron Man's a villain now?"

In any case, I was pointing out that "comic book writers" are just writers and JMS wrote Babylon 5, which has some of the most morally gray characters around (see: G'Kar and Londo). Saying that comic book writers can only write black-and-white superheroes and villains is just completely wrong.

Having armed guards escorting people to prison happens in real life too for non-fascist reasons.
That wasn't my point — my point was that the Superhero Registration Act seemed to be for people who had powers so that they knew how to use them or so that they didn't use them recklessly. Daredevil's powers can't be used recklessly, because they are entirely non-combative — he has great senses, but he fights entirely with the strength of a regular person. There is no way that what could happen with Stamford could happen with Daredevil.

And yet they arrested him because he refused to sign up with the SHRA. Hell, they attempted to arrest Cap before it even became a law. Which means that even people without powers were being forced to sign up, which is a violation of their civil rights and oops, now we get to the fascist parts.

Edited by alliterator on Oct 7th 2019 at 8:46:11 AM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#111015: Oct 7th 2019 at 8:44:54 AM

Government regulation of superhumans is actually a pretty interesting topic. On the one hand, as Rodimus Minor pointed out a while back, Alan Moore presents a famous "against" argument in Watchmen, which shows the end result of making metahumans beholden to the government would be, essentially, state-sanctioned super-hitmen answerable to the likes of Richard Nixon.

The problem with this argument is that it ignores the fact that permission to refuse illegal and unreasonable orders is a thing that exists in real life. Hell, Captain America has made a career out of telling the US government to go to hell when they try to make him do something wrong.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#111016: Oct 7th 2019 at 8:48:59 AM

One thing that benefit the MCU conflict is that the Accords would have made the Avengers beholden to the U.N., rather than the United States government. When people think about regulating superheroes, they often think of "President Bag O'Dicks is sending Spider-Man to Iran to topple their government."

In fact, the Ultimate comics literally did that with the Iraq War.

The MCU conflict would have made the Avengers into U.N. peacekeepers rather than a paramilitary force run by any one sovereign state.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 7th 2019 at 9:49:19 AM

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#111017: Oct 7th 2019 at 8:53:26 AM

I'm honestly reminded how much..biblical symbolism there was in Civil War,they didn't exactly hide the fact that the last battle between cap and Tony had the last Supper's background

Also,I can't recall if this was in movie but there was a thing about Tony being a Judus figure because a bag of coins or something

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jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
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#111018: Oct 7th 2019 at 8:55:20 AM

JMS definitely thought the whole cloning Thor thing was a villainous act not a question of competence as he went on to have Thor deliver a verbal smackdown in his own book - followed by an effortless physical one.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
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#111019: Oct 7th 2019 at 8:56:47 AM

Well it is a breach of trust to clone someone without so much as a how do you do

Sure Thor was dead at the time but there are things you don’t do, like cloning your friend and then using that clone as a weapon

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windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#111020: Oct 7th 2019 at 9:02:39 AM

Also,I can't recall if this was in movie but there was a thing about Tony being a Judus figure because a bag of coins or something

It wasn't in the movie but it was in the comics. When Daredevil was being escorted to prison, one of his guards handed Tony a coin Matt had hidden under his tongue (ew). Matt told Tony it was one of the pieces of silver he could use to pay the devil when he went to hell because he was now Judas.

That story was really stupid.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#111022: Oct 7th 2019 at 9:05:50 AM

That's the kind of moment that just makes me think about the logistics involved. Matt had to hide a silver coin under his tongue while in costume just in case he was arrested, in the hopes that Tony would personally oversee his arrest so that he could deliver a sick burn while being escorted to prison.

A sick burn that, almost certainly, went straight into Tony's bank deposit and was spared not another second's thought - and that's assuming Tony Stark, famously a misotheistic humanist, even got it.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 7th 2019 at 10:08:09 AM

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#111023: Oct 7th 2019 at 9:06:29 AM

We should be glad no one rose after three days when they were buried in a cave..wait a minute Tony Stark woke up in a cave and built an Ironman suit there in the first movie

god dammit

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#111024: Oct 7th 2019 at 9:09:50 AM

[up][up]Not to mention, I don't think hiding a coin under your tongue is a pleasant experience for a guy who whose sense of taste is dialed up to eleven.

Basically, Tony was the only character in the main Civil War book that Millar tried to write as somebody with some level of common sense.

[up]And then he died for everyone's sins.

Edited by windleopard on Oct 7th 2019 at 9:13:30 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#111025: Oct 7th 2019 at 9:09:58 AM

We should be glad no one rose after three days when they were buried in a cave..wait a minute Tony Stark woke up in a cave and built an Ironman suit there in the first movie

god dammit

Yep. The irony is frankly amazing.

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