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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#110976: Oct 6th 2019 at 3:15:00 PM

[up][up][up]

If you want to show hero vs. hero fights, “charity tournament” is a much better idea than “poorly constructed conflict that makes everyone look bad” or “alien superbeing forces gladatorial games”.

Because of the low stakes, they wouldn’t be going all-out, but the answer to “who would win?” is always “the author’s favourite”, so that’s okay. It would still let you showcase heroes using their powers against each other in creative ways.

Edited by Galadriel on Oct 6th 2019 at 6:15:46 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#110977: Oct 6th 2019 at 3:24:51 PM

The Champions formed when Kamala and other younger heroes grew disillusioned about the Avengers.

Which is not a good thing (well, the Champions are a good thing, but young heroes completely losing faith in their predecessors is not).

That lack of faith in older heroes may come back to bite them at some point.

One Strip! One Strip!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#110978: Oct 6th 2019 at 3:29:03 PM

Let's You and Him Fight isn't very exciting if the stakes are low. Like, Iron Man and Cap can just have a friendly sparring match, nothing on the line, any time a writer wants them to. But it will never match the tension of Captain America: Civil War's third act.

The stakes are what make the fight worth showing to an audience. Without stakes, it's just empty action.

Even anime tends to realize this, because tournament arcs usually do have stakes. Dragon Ball, the ur-example, had three tournament arcs.

  1. In the first arc, the central stake was that if Goku actually wins this thing, it will go to his head and make his lose interest in martial arts. For the sake of his own discipline, he needs to be humbled. This is a problem because Goku is an immensely powerful super-being of seemingly unparalleled capability, so his mentor enters the tournament in disguise in the hopes of actually doing the impossible and beating Goku.
  2. In the second arc, a rival school enters the tournament. They're bad people who cheat and aspire to become assassins. Goku will have to defeat them despite their cheating, and his mentor wants to use the opportunity to redeem them and make them good people.
  3. In the third arc, literal Satan enters the tournament to use it as an opportunity to murder Goku.

For a tournament arc, these kind of stakes are important. Without stakes, it's just people fighting each other over nothing. That's not a very good story.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 6th 2019 at 4:30:08 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#110979: Oct 6th 2019 at 3:29:17 PM

And Carol had the gall to come to his funeral.

Reminds me of that bit from Civil War 1 where Tony has the nerve to give the whole “we will heroically end this conflict so that this never happens again” spiel to Goliath’s mother - Goliath’s death being largely his fault - in response to her complaining that instead of getting a proper burial her son was being craned into a ditch.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Oct 6th 2019 at 3:31:34 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#110980: Oct 6th 2019 at 3:30:49 PM

[up] Wow that just hurts.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#110981: Oct 6th 2019 at 3:34:20 PM

The classy thing to do would have been to use Pym Particles to shrink the corpse back to normal size. What with Hank Pym himself being a Pro-Reg and all.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#110982: Oct 6th 2019 at 3:36:53 PM

What if the snap had erased the other half of all life?

  • Strange, Wanda, Panther, Wasp, Peter, Drax - Groot, Quill, Mantis (?), Falcon, Bucky, Fury, Maria Hill, Shuri, Hank, Janet Thanos because let's face it, as if he'd have included himself on the losing side of the equation.
  • REMEMBER THE FALLEN
    • Stark, Rogers, Widow, Thor, Valkyrie, Okoye, Wong, Hawkeye, Banner, Danvers, Pepper, Scott, Nebula, Rocket, War Machine,
    • STILL DEAD NO MATTER WHAT
      • Gamora, Vision, Logan, Ultron, etc.

What would that version of Endgame have looked like act-by-act?

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#110983: Oct 6th 2019 at 3:41:44 PM

Press F for Howard the Duck.

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#110984: Oct 6th 2019 at 3:51:01 PM

That's fan-made, right? It doesn't look official, though I would LOVE for this to be an actual episode of "What-If?".

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#110985: Oct 6th 2019 at 3:58:56 PM

A thought just occurred to me, something that could potentially come up in the next Doctor Strange movie: would Dormammu have been affected by that "erase half of all life" thing? If so, what would be the effect of a cosmic entity who's basically an entire dimension and exists outside of time vanishing into dust be like?

Oh, and re: hero vs. hero fights: those are a Marvel Comics staple, always have been since their very first crossover between the Human Torch and Namor the Sub-Mariner. It's just those fights used to last only a single issue and not have any lasting consequences, not take up half a year's worth of stories and leave numerous beloved characters dead.

Edited by RavenWilder on Oct 6th 2019 at 4:01:32 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#110986: Oct 6th 2019 at 4:04:58 PM

I doubt it. Dormammu’s extradimensional, so he’s somewhat out of the Stone’s radius.

It would’ve affected Ego, though.

Come to think of it, would it have affected Ultron or Vision?

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#110987: Oct 6th 2019 at 4:08:39 PM

They were both born from the Soul Mind Stone, so arguably maybe they were part of the Stones' purview despite being artificial life.

EDIT: Oops.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Oct 6th 2019 at 4:28:04 AM

AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#110989: Oct 6th 2019 at 4:17:22 PM

Actually, there's something else that occurred to me. What if, when the Snap went off, instead of disintegration everyone faces like a big encompassing flash of light and everyone in each half finds everyone in the other half is gone. So basically two different simultaneous realities and canons and we cut back and forth between the two perspectives as they each deal with half the universe just...disappearing like that. I imagine trying to snap everyone back into one reality would uh, not pan out as well as desired.

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#110991: Oct 6th 2019 at 5:04:21 PM

Technically it was a permanent coma. Tony had to build himself a brand new body
No, it wasn't — again, he came out of the coma, which means it wasn't permanent. And he didn't build a new body while he was in a coma, either; he had basically done so many experiments on his own body, it was practically new, but it was the same body that went into the coma that came out of it.

Edited by alliterator on Oct 6th 2019 at 5:04:38 AM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#110992: Oct 6th 2019 at 5:10:54 PM

Ok fair enough. My memory was inaccurate

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#110993: Oct 7th 2019 at 12:03:50 AM

Not only is Dormammu extradimensional, I'm not sure the Stones would actually recognize him as "life". He's completely alien to the main universe's concept of life.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#110994: Oct 7th 2019 at 12:14:12 AM

Problem is: the ability to psychically predict crimes with 100% accuracy and no drawbacks? That's f*cking awesome! There is literally no reason not to use that. Any leader would trade their right kidney for such a system. Problem is, these are also superhero comic writers telling the story, so they skip over "There's gonna be a murder, let's find out why and make it not happen," in favor of "There's gonna be a murder, let's lock up everyone involved in Nazi Internment Camps."

In addition to this, the conflict in Civil War I was a result of a decades old status quo of tensions between superheroes and the government/civilians. By contrast, relying on precognitives for help has never been a source f controversy in the Marvel Universe. The X-Men have relied on at least three different precogs (Blindfold, Layla Miller and Destiny) and one of Spider-Man's allies is a precog named Madame Web. The irony of Carol's stance in Civil War 2 is that she had her life indirectly and unintentionally ruined by one of the aforementioned precogs.

Mystique, as Raven Darkhölme, rises rapidly through the United States Civil Service to the trusted position of Deputy Director of the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) in the United States Department of Defense. This position gives her access to military secrets and advanced weaponry, both of which she uses for her own criminal and subversive purposes. In this position, she attempts the theft of the Centurion weaponry from S.H.I.E.L.D.[22] As Destiny had predicted that Ms. Marvel was a danger to Rogue, she spied on Carol Danvers and Ms. Marvel for some time prior to beating her lover Michael Barnett to death, and sought to kill Ms. Marvel.[23]

In fact, I remember Tom Breevort said in an interview that he believed Carol's stance made the most sense but since they felt there was no drama in her just simply being unambiguously right they turned her faction into a bunch of puppy-kicking fascists. Which is what they also did to the pro-reg side in Civil War 1. A major problem with Marvel's events in recent years is their inability to understand that both sides can have a point without both being detestable people.

Edited by windleopard on Oct 7th 2019 at 12:19:27 PM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#110995: Oct 7th 2019 at 12:17:26 AM

Another problem is that making one side detestable people is really problematic when both sides are supposed to be superheroes.

Disgusted, but not surprised
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#110996: Oct 7th 2019 at 12:26:01 AM

Yeah that's kind of a big problem.

Like Tony & Carol are supposed to be headlining comics as MC's so why would ya wanna turn them into Super Hitler?

Are we supposed to keep thinking of them as heroes after they've done horrible things with no remorse?

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 7th 2019 at 12:26:46 PM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#110997: Oct 7th 2019 at 12:29:44 AM

I guess they figured the verbal and physical beatdowns he got afterwards were supposed to make up for it. Subsequent writers have really been playing up Tony's mental issues since Civil War.

It didn't help that in the main book Tony was portrayed a lot more sympathetically while in other titles that tied into the event he was far more cruel.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#110998: Oct 7th 2019 at 5:34:45 AM

Part of the issue is also that superheroes are written by superhero writers. These are not people whose talent lies in weaving complex gray-and-gray morality stories. These are people who write stories about good guys beating up bad guys. That's why one side of the conflict inevitably winds up being Nazis, even if they weren't supposed to be Nazis and were actually meant to be right.

People don't sign up to write Spider-Man or Captain America because they want the character to be standing around having philosophical debates. They sign up to write Spider-Man or Captain America so that he can beat up bad guys.

When the premise of Civil War was being deliberated in the writers' room, J. Michael Straczynski, who wrote Amazing Spider-Man at the time, was quoted as asking, "So Iron Man is a supervillain now?" And that pretty much wound up being the mindset behind the first Civil War event. Because that's how superhero writers write superheroes.

Captain America: Civil War benefit, I think, from having a creative team that works in the film industry. Film, as a medium, has a lot more experience with writing complex plots about fallible characters, none of whom are entirely meant to be right.

Superhero comics aren't that story. In superhero comics, the superhero's meant to be right. That's the point of writing a superhero, and it's why purely hero v. hero conflicts tend not to go well in comic books, but can demonstrably be done much better in film.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 7th 2019 at 6:37:50 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#111000: Oct 7th 2019 at 6:25:50 AM

Doctor Strange may be the blandest MCU hero of them all, but the glorious effects and climax more than make up for it.

The legend has returned.

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