Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules
still apply.
- This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
- While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread
. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
- Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.
If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.
Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
Yeah, like I said earlier, my point of contention with Scorcese is that trying to define what "real art" (that's not the word he uses, but it's the same concept really) is purely on the basis of whether you like it or not is very useful, on top of being pretentious. It's always better to use it as a description. If he just said "they're not for me" and left it at that then I don't think anyone would make too big a deal out of it.
@Loutish Helminthic I don't think he's dismissing comic books per se, though I do feel he's dismissing Marvel movies by claiming they are "not true cinema", and doing so on somewhat flawed logic.
Also, I can disprove some things he's said. For example: "It isn’t the cinema of human beings trying to convey emotional, psychological experiences to another human being" This is actually an almost objectively false statement. The MCU films are products created by humans to create psychological experiences in humans consuming them.
Leviticus 19:34I guess Scorcese... kind of... has a point in terms of the idea that Marvel movies have to fit into a "cinematic universe" and even when more "unusual", are the comic book version of something. So like for instance, The First Avenger is a comic book George Lucas Throwback World War II movie, Winter Soldier is a comic book political thriller, and a lot of the more recent ones are comic book space operas.
However, Scorcese pretty clearly likes other George Lucas Throwback works, being friends with Spielberg (and Lucas himself?), and has also made them himself. Further, to the extent that his critique is that they are popular media and not arty, there's a real "old man yells at cloud" feel, because Scorcese likes and praises popular media from his childhood.
Overall, I think of MCU movies as somewhere between the works of someone like Capra or Hitchcock, who had a Signature Style, and various popular blockbusters of the past - thinking particularly of Star Wars, Erol Flynn's swashbucklers and all of those Biblical epics/ gladitator movies of the 50's.
The fact that there is this control from Feig/Disney makes them somewhat different, but then again, directors have pretty much always answered to popular studio executives.
Finally, the fact that MCU movies tend to be the "comic book version" of various genres is something that has been true of Marvel comics themselves for a while. Like Luke Cage was created to cash in on the Blaxpoitation genre, Blade was created to cash in on Blaxpoitation and Hammer Horror movies, Shang Chi was created to cash in on Kung Fu movies, etc. Similarly, Marvel owns the rights to Conan the Barbarian and will use him (as well as characters like Thor and Hercules) whenever they want to do a sword and sorcery or heroic fantasy story. The list goes on.
Edited by Hodor2 on Oct 5th 2019 at 7:20:42 AM
Reminder that The Irishman’s showings have met with near universal acclaim and he’s an Oscar front runner.
He is not an old man yelling at clouds.
![]()
And your point is?
For the records, I still respect Scorcese and his works, I know he is still putting out consistently good-quality work. And I freaking adore Hugo and what it says about cinema.
But yeah, he doesn't have a point in this conversation.
Exactly.
Edited by Nightwire on Oct 5th 2019 at 9:16:39 AM
Avengers: Endgame has made more money than literally every single Scorsese movie combined. Don't act like this is all just about what constitutes high art and pretend that he isn't at least a widdwe bit sawty.
My various fanfics.And you know, saying that movies heavy with Special Effects and spectacles to bring the audience adventures and joy "not real cinema" is mighty hypocritical of him, considering he made Hugo, a film celebrating exactly that.
I mean, basically the whole defining moment of Steamboat Bill, Jr. is the cool effect of a house falling on Buster Keaton. That's the old-timey equivalent of flashy special effects.
At the very least, this is nothing new.
Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Oct 6th 2019 at 3:15:21 PM
You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!I forgot who it was that said it, but I remember some other film director stating they didn't really like the concept of the MCU, but gave a slightly more coherent reason. Being that all the movies are connected in some way. That even though it's a cool idea, it also means more pressure to see all the films, and sometimes people don't have the luxury or time to do so (for example, you can't just go and see the Captain America trilogy without seeing a couple other Marvel films in-between, to know what the heck is going on).
Edited by Brandon on Oct 6th 2019 at 3:17:41 AM
Like creepy stories? Check out my book!![]()
![]()
Honestly that was only a thing after Avengers. The solo movies before that were very self-contained, apart from the Coulson cameos, as the idea of a conmected universe only formed over time.
I honestly don't even know why Iron Man 1+2, Hulk, Thor 1 and Cap 1 are considered part of the Infinity Saga when Thanos wasn't even introduced at that point.
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% ScandinavianApart from the question of their artistic merit, the Marvel movies being so highly interconnected and so numerous does make them different from other movies. It’s almost more like they’re a very expensive TV series with 2-4 episodes per year.
And while some of them can stand on their own, others can’t. If you watch Endgame, or even Infinity War, without having seen several of the previous films, they’re likely to be bewildering and are highly unlikely to have any emotional impact - because they’re starting from the assumption that you’re already familiar with these characters and emotionally invested in them from previous Marvel movies. Even solo movies like Far From Home assume you care about Tony Stark and know about his connection with Peter.
Because those movies introduced other characters that were important to the Infinity Saga such as Iron Man, Hulk, Thor, and Cap.
"Infinity Saga" isn't really a thing. Like, nobody was working on Ant-Man going, "This is going to be a fascinating Infinity Saga film!" It's a label retroactively applied to Phases I-III.
Marvel's just throwing around the phrase "Infinity Saga" now because it looks cooler on box set packaging than "Phases I-III" does. It's just marketing.
Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 6th 2019 at 12:25:34 PM
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Browsing in internet, many use the infamous Appeal to Authority as a form of debate.
"Martin Scorsese said marvel movies are not true cinema, do you think you are smarter than Martin Scorsesse?"
They are not the exact words, but the point is understood.
I have watched... Captain America: Civil War!
Summary: The Avengers break up in two, all because of the clever manipulations of Helmut Zemo. Meanwhile, the friendship (or bromance) between Steve and Bucky still continues.
'Stan Lee cameo: FedEx guy who misnames Tony Stark as "Tony Stank".
Observations:
- Spider-Man! And Black Panther! Yes!
- Damion Poitier (remember him as first actor for Thanos?) has a role here. Jim Rash, too. So does Sophie Russo, the daughter of one of the Russos.
- Crossbones returns (this time has a suit!)! And Gen. William Hurt, I mean, Thadeus Ross returns!note
- John Wick's David Leitch and Chad Stahelski were second-unit directors here.
- Scott Lang, Ant-Man II, became Giant-Man!
- The airport fight was awesome!
- So begins Tony and Peter's mentor-protege relationship...
- No direct mention of Uncle Ben... not really bugged. I just realized it amounts to nothing if I complain about no mentions (at least this) of Uncle Ben. Tony, did you supplant him? Also, Aunt May is younger than ever... hmmm... looks more like a mom to me...
- Tony finally admits it: Ultron was his fault.
- Since Tony lost JARVIS as his personal A.I., FRIDAY was created.
- And so, the Avengers still fight each other.
- Nothing Is the Same Anymore, I guess. Zemo broke them in two. Downer Ending, I guess? But hey, Steve promises Tony that he will come if he'll be called.
- T'Chaka dies. T'Challa becomes king... later.
- I like Spider-Man here. Tom Holland manages to be very great here so far!
- This film almost drove out Kevin Feige and Chris Evans. All because of Ike Perlmutter's threats that if RDJ will have a bigger paycheck, he will fire him (idiot)... so Disney had to step up in 2015 to separate Marvel Studios and make everyone happy (except Ike).
- So, Bucky killed Tony's parents, Howard and Maria. But HYDRA ordered him to do so...
- Isn't the plot very similar to Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice? They were even planned to be released on the exact same day! Until WB decided to move their BvS in March to avoid competition. They lost anyway.
The Stinger: Not another two-pack...
- Bucky is taken care by Wakandans. Steve and T'Chaka decide to stand, even if Bucky will be taken. (Mid-credits)
- Aunt May asks Peter who hit him. After that, Peter discovers that he has a cool gadget (presumably from Tony). (Post-credits)
10/10!note
"Scooby Dooby Doo!"Also, Aunt May is younger than ever... hmmm... looks more like a mom to me...
![]()
Actually, the current actress for Aunt May is in her 50s, and she's older than the actress for Aunt May in the Amazing films.
Maybe the term didn't exist, but I KNOW they announced the complete box set of the first 3 phases a WHILE ago, before most of Phase 2 had come out.
Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Oct 6th 2019 at 11:57:04 AM

I find it a hypocritical claim considering a subtextual theme in Scorcese's Hugo was the power of special effects and how new cinema technology is just as capable of being innovative and thrilling as the old. Hugo dedicates a bit of time to depicting an incoming train in widescreen and 3D, in hopes of astonishing audiences the way Arrival of a Train at La Ciotat allegedly did in 1896. It even depicts the birth of motion pictures as being at a circus carnival and the field being pioneered by stage magicians.
TL DR, cinema was born as an FX show, Marvel movies being showcases for CGI makes them just as much movies as Méliès.
Edited by Tuckerscreator on Oct 5th 2019 at 7:51:29 AM