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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#110851: Oct 4th 2019 at 1:28:27 PM

Scorsese is one of the greatest, most celebrated directors of all time. I cannot buy the notion he’s jealous.

He’s definitely an elitist.

And yet, Avengers: Endgame made more money than literally every movie he's ever made combined.

Some bitterness is not unsurprising.

Btw, Ms. Marvel was shown off as the main character of Square Enix's upcoming Avengers game.

Oh good. The trailer made it seem like she was probably going to be the main character, but I was half-expecting it to turn out to be "Your OC!" A lot of franchise games have been going that route lately. It's stupid.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 4th 2019 at 2:32:16 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#110852: Oct 4th 2019 at 1:41:28 PM

[up][up] Ugh, Uncanny Valley at its worst.

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Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#110853: Oct 4th 2019 at 2:04:40 PM

To quote the immortal John Carpenter: "A lot of old-timers like to bitch, but movies are for the young. Audiences love superhero movies, and that's good. Things evolve and things change."

Martin Scorcese is my favorite of New Hollywood's Old Guard, but even he has his moments of being bitter.

Even beyond bitterness, Scorcese is also something of The Last DJ of the New Hollywood's hardcore auteur school in that he seems to be the last one of them still delivering austeur-esque masterpieces. the others are dead, retired or making mass-appeal/pretty bad films. The MCU empire (owned by none other than Disney) stand for the exact antithesis of what Scorcese and most of The New Hollywood school stood for: mass-appeal, blockbuster juggernauts produced by a industrial system.

For good and for ill, the MCU challenges the notion of Auteur Theory in several ways by inserting auteur directors in this massified genre and industrial production.

For one, I'd like to see the likes of James Gunn, Ryan Coogler and Taika Waititi (the three most "auteur" directors of the MCU) and Martin Scorcese, Ridley Scott and William Friedkin (three of the most vocal directors in their dislike for superhero movies) in a round table discussing and contrasting notions of cinema (and auteur cinema) in both their time and now within the MCU shadow.

And maybe have John Carpenter as a mediator.

Edited by Gaon on Oct 4th 2019 at 2:07:58 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#110854: Oct 4th 2019 at 2:18:23 PM

[up][up] Eh, it's not entirely bad.

[up] Scorsese's probably jealous...

Speaking of Kamala, I've been having a weird (if morbid) thought I had about having her connected to the bigger MCU. What if someone in her family was among the Snapped, like her brother Aamir, and she ended up growing up without him only for him to get Blipped five years later?

Edited by TargetmasterJoe on Oct 4th 2019 at 5:19:18 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#110855: Oct 4th 2019 at 2:35:02 PM

I think people are way too hard on the MCU just cause its "made for mass appeal & a young audience'.

I mean Micheal Bay exists & his movies are made in a similar way yet they legitimately terrible. This is the same guy who made a movie that has a grown man justifing having sex with a minor through a law card he keeps in his wallet.

I say we all focus our collective energy on how much Bay sucks. tongue

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 4th 2019 at 2:35:24 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#110856: Oct 4th 2019 at 2:59:52 PM

There were probably auteur filmmakers back in the day who claimed Star Wars wasn't real cinema. I recall recently reading a segment of an interview with Alfred Hitchcock where he talked about Star Wars and he basically was confused why they were using laser blasts instead of actual guns. This stuff has been around for a while.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#110857: Oct 4th 2019 at 3:01:28 PM

Had he not heard of sci fi?

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#110858: Oct 4th 2019 at 3:07:46 PM

To contrast, Paul Thomas Anderson (himself an auteur filmmaker of considerable talent) has always championed "lowbrow" mass appeal films and looked down on that kind of film snobbery, although I don't know if he's a fan of the MCU films specifically.

Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#110859: Oct 4th 2019 at 3:40:43 PM

And then there's Troma, who are proud to make Schlock. Also helped James Gunn's career.

Edited by Demongodofchaos2 on Oct 4th 2019 at 6:42:24 AM

Watch Symphogear
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#110860: Oct 4th 2019 at 3:44:13 PM

Most of them (except James Cameron and Spielberg, who are very good friends with Bay) probably hate him too, but Bay never took over Hollywood the way the MCU did. So I can understand the greater focus on this (alongside the whole auteur cinema discussion), even if I think is misplaced.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#110861: Oct 4th 2019 at 3:46:03 PM

Well, I mean there is shallow and there is.....bloodless.

And off course the fact that a good portion of Michael Bay's characters often end up being racist or sexist, annoying stereotypes.

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Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#110862: Oct 4th 2019 at 4:02:20 PM

I have heard Lindsey (I think?) argue that technically speaking, Michael Bay is an auteur, just one whose vision happens to be something that would normally come out of the more "industrial" and cynical parts of Hollywood. Essentially, he's an anti-sellout.

Leviticus 19:34
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#110863: Oct 4th 2019 at 4:05:01 PM

He did get his start making commercials and porn, which comes across in his directing style.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#110864: Oct 4th 2019 at 4:07:53 PM

He did get his start making commercials and porn
Commercials, yes; porn, no.

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#110865: Oct 4th 2019 at 4:16:09 PM

No porn, unless you consider Victoria's Secret ads. Coppola and Sonnenfeld, on the other hand...

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#110866: Oct 4th 2019 at 4:21:10 PM

And hey, you have to give Michael props at least for calling out shitbag Uwe Boll.

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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#110867: Oct 4th 2019 at 5:31:33 PM

It is pretty funny that Bay actually has an auteur style, its just a style that synergizes really well with mass-market appeal & such.

His Transformers movies are a really indicative case of this. Each installment increasingly lambasted but it took the fifth movie for audiences to actually get tired of his repetitive & unevolving style.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#110869: Oct 5th 2019 at 6:38:46 AM

It is pretty funny that Bay actually has an auteur style, its just a style that synergizes really well with mass-market appeal & such.

His Transformers movies are a really indicative case of this. Each installment increasingly lambasted but it took the fifth movie for audiences to actually get tired of his repetitive & unevolving style.

That's because there's a large difference between a movie that is good versus a movie that is popular. As much as people like to say that they don't want shit like Bay's mindless action flicks, the box office ticket sales say otherwise.

It's like Nickelback. Ask anyone what they think about Nickelback and they are quick to tell you how much they hate the worst band ever made. And yet, Nickelback is one of the highest-selling bands in the history of music. People are buying Nickelback records left and right. So what does that mean?

People don't know what they want; they know what they think they want. Other times, people are just ashamed to admit to what they want; they know what they want to want. And that's probably one of the hardest things about film production: trying to find real feedback in the ocean of egos, pretense, and concealment of guilty pleasures.

Because everyone wants to believe that they're only into really clever films with strong artistic merit while they're standing in line for the next Jack Black comedy. Everyone wants to say that Michael Bay is a terrible director with zero talent and no redeeming qualities to his work while they're hitting the theater for that third watch of Sailor Moon But Explosions.

Everyone hates reboots, hates sequels, hates adaptations, and watches the hell out of all three. Everyone talks about how the only good films are original IPs, but if you look at the top 20 highest-grossing films of all time, you'll find 7 adaptations, 14 sequels, and even 2 reboots for good measure.

The only movies in that top 20 that are purely original IP are Avatar and Titanic, the former of which is also generally agreed by the internet to be shit. And both of those were recently surpassed by an adaptation sequel. You want to know why film studios aren't churning out original IP films? It's because nobody watches original IP. People just say they want original IP because it makes them sound classier.

So, yeah, that's where Bay falls. Like Nickelback, it's very popular to hate Michael Bay, but also people pay a lot of money for his movies so obviously he has an audience. It's just that nobody's willing to admit in public to liking his films.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AyyItsMidnight Look, just be decent to one another ok? Since: Oct, 2018
Look, just be decent to one another ok?
#110870: Oct 5th 2019 at 7:38:39 AM

I myself can't tell you what to like or not like or give money to, but it's always a good thing to seek out original I Ps.

Self-serious autistic trans gal who loves rock/metal and animation with all her heart. (she/her)
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#110871: Oct 5th 2019 at 7:59:19 AM

I love Nickelbacktongue

A better comparison would've been the Call of Duty franchise imO.

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Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#110872: Oct 5th 2019 at 8:10:23 AM

I'm pretty sure Titanic is also generally agreed on to be shit.

The legend has returned.
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#110873: Oct 5th 2019 at 8:11:02 AM

I like Titanic but not Avatar myself.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#110874: Oct 5th 2019 at 8:12:45 AM

I mean, to be honest, most people I think have a very different relationship with movies than most of us here do.

This forum is filled with people who spend a lot of time thinking about movies (and other media), dissecting them, comparing them to other films, trying to find out what makes them tick and what they're really saying, and so on. People who make films like Scorcese are also going to have that kind of outlook.

But really, for the average person, a movie is just a fun one and a half to three hours they're using to blow off some steam after a long day/week of their nine to five. Unless the film is really great and speaks to them in some way they're probably not gonna think about it too much after they get out of the theater. They may not even think something like Bay's films is all that great necessarily, but it's serviceable for that purpose. In fact it's apparently great for that purpose since those films made so much money for such a long time.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Oct 5th 2019 at 11:19:37 AM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#110875: Oct 5th 2019 at 9:17:03 AM

I like Nickelback and have no idea why it seems so popular to hate them.


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